Well, I can't speak for everyone but I have heard that Grandmaster Kee Hwang has said something like "if you are going to fight, make sure you will win, otherwise don't fight (go into battle)".

This, I think, is the spirit combining 8 and 9.

Your thoughts on it.

"if you are going to fight, make sure you will win, otherwise don't fight (go into battle)"

Don't you think that outcomes of encounters may be entirely unknowable? Furthermore, where are the notions of "sacrifice" and "courage" if one predicates his involvement on the "sure win"?

Or is this to mean, "Don't pull your punches or withhold techniques. If you commit to fighting, don't eliminate eye-gouges, groin shots or other vicious attacks. Do what's necessary to win"?

I'd imagine it's the latter, or something I didn't consider.

You have to consider the time that KJN formed the idea of Moo Duk Kwan. He was living in occupied Korea circa WWII with all of the "goodness" that comes with. You also have to consider that "Moo" defines how we practice. It *is* military, full of "yessirs" and "nosirs."

In a larger sense, we are *martial* artists. We're practicing for a time when we may need to defend our lives and/or the lives of those we love. That means commiting to action and finishing what we start. It's not just "I'm OK, your OK." It's kick'em in the knads and get out of there alive. BTW, we do practice groin shots. Look at Bassai or Pyong an Odan hyungs.

Sir,

The purpose of this post is not to question the KJN, but to elicit a discussion of these two points in our articles of Faith.

I mean, what is faith? One could view it as a trust in the correctness of an idea. The ten articles of Faith, therefore, are ten ideas we trust without burdening the elements with the requirement of a formal proof.

I think discussing these points acts like a "dry panning" gold miner, who lets raw dirt fall from his grip and blows the stream of dust, sand and debris to let the gold fall straight down - the rest blown away.

Personally, I think the attitude that focuses a student's mind to maximum concentration is a prefered one. Besides, I like exploring the philosophical foundation of an organization.

Since, as you point out, KJN had a military organization in mind, do you think it's consistant with MDK history to teach "Know the difference between good and evil" as an article eight? Should the original article be altered to accomodate a civilian organization?

In our organization, Article 8 is "Be Discreet in Killing". Although I agree that the 10 Articles of Faith and Mental Training are obviously the constructs of a militaristic/nationalistic society, I think that we can modernize the lessons behind the words and interpret them in our own way.

For instance, "Be Discreet in Killing" could be applied to day-to-day life in that one should not immediately discount ideas that might, on the service, seem wrong. "Never Retreat in Battle" can refer to more than just physical battles, but can also be applied to mental battles people face with others and within themselves at work, school, etc.

Mr. Leviathan,

I'm a little confused at "Be discreet in killing". You wrote, "one should not immediately discount ideas that might, on the service, seem wrong." By that, are you taking "killing" to be metaphorical? As in, "killing an idea"?

Why did you take the drastic departure from "fight" to "killing"?

I like the idea of, again, treating "battle" as metaphorical. Fact is, I doubt any of us face actual combat every day, let alone killing...unless there are some particularly menacing special forces folk posting. We all, however, face personal challenges.

Hello,
This is a good question. When I first started training #8 was "kill in justice and with honor" It was later changed 93 or 94 I am not sure, to "Face combat with justice and with honor" My take , like what is already been mentioned before, that a combat could be a personal combat. Any obstacle in your life should be faced with a proper attitude and discipline.
Just my 2 cents.
SOO BAHK!
DT

Hi Dave,

"kill in justice and with honor"

Wow! That's pretty extreme! I wonder what the original Articles of Faith were?

"Any obstacle in your life should be faced with a proper attitude and discipline."

I think that's an admirable attitude...and good lord, is that easy for me to say but difficult to do!!!

I think for anyone it is easier said than done.

Greetings Master Tenedorio,

The Moo Duk Kwan, as I understand it, has a responsibility to regulate and standardize content. Is this the case with the Ten Articles as well?

Is there any literature which expands upon these Ten Articles of Faith?

Hi,
Here is the full verse from the US Federation Gup Manual.

Copyright 1976 Version states:
8. Kill only in justice and with honor. Be able to distinguish between good and bad with fairness and rightfulness.

9. Never retreat in battle. Sacrifice for justice with capability and bravery.

Current version Copyright 2001 shows the revision of the wording on #8
8. Face combat only in justice and with honor. Be able to distinguish between good and bad with fairness and rightfulness.

Yours in Moo Duk Kwan,
Dave

thank you for the clarification, sir! my old gup manual was lost to the sands of time...

-pj steyer

Hello Sir,

8. Face combat only in justice and with honor. Be able to distinguish between good and bad with fairness and rightfulness.

I think an article like that is a perfect backdrop to educate young people on what justice and honor are. When I was a kid, someone did insult my mother and I clobbered the guy. I thought that was honor. It certainly seemed like the honorable thing to do at the time.

As an adult...I have mixed feelings, frankly. I remember the look on the guy's face who said the comments and how satisfying it was to wipe it off. Never had any trouble from him again and the encounter did leave me with a sense of pride and honor. Others viewed it the same.

On the other hand, in today's world, a kid could get expelled or perhaps even sued. Furthermore, allowing another to provoke me with words is a sign of a lack of discipline and control. The english refer to insult wars as "barracking", and the one who loses his temper loses the encounter.

So my daughter I will teach the verbal art of self defense - how to disarm people verbally and just walk away. Who knows how a physical encounter can escalate? I grew up in a nice area. Perhaps in another area, I would have been jumped and severely thrashed for my efforts. It's the unanticipated consequences that are the killers in life...

as i recall, and i'm pretty sure this is correct, though it was some years ago, it used to read in entirety:

"be discreet in killing - kill only in justice and with honor."

i agree with master tenedorio's interpretation of its current reading. to me, "be discreet" means to use the utmost DISCRETION, and never to take an action that was more than the minimum necessary to surmount an obstacle. if a strong look and a kihap is enough to cow an attacker, why beat his face in?! and when it came to "kill or be killed," use all the mental power you have at your disposal to ensure that it truly is just that type of situation.

as for the latter part, the interpretations of "justice" and "honor" can be varied, but someone calling your mother a nasty name is not a slight to one's honor - it is just some moron trying to get a rise out of you. one displys one's honor by letting such a one alone, not by twisting his head around.

in moo do,
pj steyer

Greetings Master Steyer,

"be discreet in killing - kill only in justice and with honor."

Given Japan's history as an occupying force, this article takes on vivid meaning. I am in complete agreement with your analysis, sir. Especially with respect to the knucklehead who'd insult one's mother. That is a very real possibility for a young student in school. It's also not unheard of in the corporate world, sadly; but to let the words of another determine our fates and behavior...that to me is not a sign of discipline. It means our buttons are readily accessible for the world to push...and to that extent, our actions and, therefore, destinies are not within our own control.

"...the mind is the primary actor..."

I knid of relate #9 5 years ago on November 9th when I open my studio. No matter what I did the county always found something new to keep me from opening. I was losing the battle. Instead getting more angry and giving up I chose my battles wisely. When they said I needed a permit for a water fountain, I responded by getting a Water cooler which does not require a electrical permit or plumbing permit. When they said I needed to pay a bond to the state for being facility for excercise, I got a business liscense for Teaching tutoring and education which does not require a bond with the state. I fought the infamous dade county with justice and honor. Now 5 years later I am getting ready to open a second school and go through this all over again. This time my battle will not be as long.

IN MOO DO
Dave Tenedorio

Hello Sir,

Interesting example! Reminds me of a famous Winston Churchill speech:

We Shall Fight On The Beaches

Excerpt:

We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender...

thanks for the comparison.