"As per Dharma and the Dao being "god" only in the loosest sense of the word."

Precisely! Which is why these philosophies have never been able to wholely dominate the globe. They failed to personalize deity and thereby alienated the Universe from the common man. This is the very reason the Christian secularism is so easily adopted even in Asia because Christianity personalizes Deity and it is comforting to the masses. People for the most part are sheep and want to be taken care of. The danger of Christianity is it is so secular and it is a political abuse of the teachings of Joshua ben Joseph. Tao as expressed in the Tao Te Ching is a wonderful metaphorical representation of the nature of Deity in omnipitence and omnipresence. Trinitized deity is described in the Tao Te Ching, however, it is only partially personalized:

'The one begot the two, the two begot the three. From the three springs forth the ten thousand things'.

A statement on the function of the trinitized nature of the deity in the act of creation.

The Tao Te Ching also makes reference to the Tao giving birth to the valley spirit, which is the mother of all things. The implication being that the Tao itself is the father of all things. A partial personalization of deity in is trinitized form. The profoundness of Taoism is that it recognized that Deity is unobservable, quantifiable or defineable until it is trinitized.

'The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name.'

JH

Personally I dont hold much to the Dao De Jing. It is a work of seriously questionable origin.
I am not alone with this either.

Laozi is one of three potential authors.
The written language doesnt match the historical timeframe.
And the origin myth, leaving the book with the gatekeeper? Please! Hardly anyone could read in those days to begin with! And language of this type would have been unthinkable to 98% of the Han people.

Zhuangzi is much more likely to be an accurate representation of Daoism.
Much more readable and more easily told in a lesson or parable.

Honestly this has been a pleasant aside, I was afraid the topic would be skirted. lol

I am at a point now in my training where I look to simplify things. To me there is a magic in simplicity. Like a sumi or chinese black and white water color painting that is simple yet profound. As for a personal philosophy I have found that it always is about energy. Positive, negative many times it boils down to good manners makes good energy, bad manners makes bad energy and no manners makes none. Does it always fit into that category? no! you can be polite and still get negative energy at that point I stop feeding the negativity. I do not invest anymore time in it.

I find when you look at the energy, intention, the root motivation you can many times see more clearly. Energy and intention goes beyond the limitations of cultural differences, and understanding it is going to the source.

Now when I say 'energy' that can take many forms, ki, chi ect. Anger, joy, fear etc.

I physical example in training is when the untrained person is struck they will usualy react with one of the three following; Fear, Shock or anger. The trained person strives to maintain his/her center. A basic pad drill I use in class is the coach holds focus mitts for a low kick, then after the student kicks they will respond with fear, shock or anger. Fear, the coach backs up and the student follows with attacks, shock the coach stnads still and the student follows up and anger the coach chases the student and the student strikes while retreating. The student tries to maintain 'centeredness' (i.e no ego or as we like to say leggo my ego)against those three energies.

So to summerize, my feeling is to develop a mindset based on simplicity and energy. When we begin to understand 'energy' we can see it manifest in various forms dispite our cultural differences.Just quieting the mind (ego)can make you aware of your own energy. I have beginners stand for a few seconds breathe and concentrate on thier palms they all are amazed at the energy they can feel in thier palms,it is very simple yet the majority of people miss the profundity of quieting thier mind and the rewards it brings.

These basic things are shared by all ancient cultures if you go back far enough. The further you go back the more similarities you will find (as you know).

I dissagree with people that think you can treat people badly or disrespectfuly with no consequences. Negative acts long outlive the source and your legacy long will outlive you. Like stars that are gone thier light continues on so to does our acts be they good or bad. You would not want to be born with the name Hitler, Manson etc. The acts we do now are like seeds for those that follow us.

I find agreement with many of the points here. i think the issue is really morality...which all religions teach morality. i really like Master Hancock's expression of the trinity from the tao, i have often explained it as thus: we are created in the image of our maker...we have a body a mind and a spirit...in Christ God has a body, in the Father he has a mind and in the Holy spirit he has spirit. very interesting.
Getting back to proper mindset, there are clear ways one should and should not act, and we all know them for the most part. i do think that what makes a master should be a higher standard of holding to those shoulds and should nots through spiritual and mental conditioning. being a Christian i try to hold obviously to my saviors standard of me (though, being mortal i often fail) but in recognizing falure i gain forgiveness and move on.
now i'm not throwing religion into a secular board...i never like to soud preachy but i think thats important to our culture. for a good amount of my junior high and highsschool years i was a practicing buddhist/taoist...so i'm exceedingly familiar with those philosophies. and getting back to the original point...morality, it is the job of a master to conduct himself in a moral, just and proper way...in all circumstances to the best he/she knows how. we give that ability the abstract name of Moodo...and yes, i think Master hancock has a point that it is often become a cliche and scapegoat term...but to borrow from the new matrix:"it is just a word what matters is the connection it implies"
Morality is constant in all religions and philsophies, well ok...except under anton levay lol...but you get my point.
goodness comes from what is good, evil comes from what is evil, and it is up to us and OUR God to decide on all the gray areas, no?, MasterSegarra is right, simplicity is a major key.
-Tang Soo!!!-J

As a non-religious person, I have a tendency to believe that religion often clouds and distorts our concept of morality. In my view, morality is not something that can be defined because there is no such thing as a good act or an evil act - thinking simply makes it so. The doctrines of religion are too often used as a means to justify ones morality, and this can bring people into conflict with each other (i.e. Jews/Muslims, Christians/Muslims, Christians/Jews, etc.). In its purest state, morality is simply a human construct or code intended to keep a society functional. The problem is that different societies function in different ways, and therefore morality varies across societies. This, combined with man's blind acceptance of religious precepts is what has caused so much conflict for mankind throughout the millenia.

Although I believe religion causes more problems than it solves, I believe spirituality is important for every individual. It is important for people to find themselves and define their own morality. Some people will define moralities that help society and will flourish in life. Some people will define moralities that destroy society and will ultimately be destroyed by that society. In the end, we are merely an ordinary race of mammals that evolved intelligence as a survival trait, in an ordinary solar system on the outskirts of an ordinary galaxy. Our lives are merely blip on the eternity of the universe, and our problems are inconsequential to its function. Sounds depressing, but in a sense it humbles you. I almost find it arrogant to believe that a higher-being watches over us and judges us on a constant basis - I don't believe we are that important.

I wish I knew where religion came from...
I never metnioned religions I mentioned philosophical schools. Therin lies the sidetrack.

I like the Morality thing, thats the direction I am looking towards.

often stray interjections lead to being sidetracked. sorry, partially my fault lol. -J

Nah! It was fun!

I feel I must ad something here for Leviathan's contemplation. I return you to a previous thread about 'Qi' in which I posted the following:

"The is sea within you and without you. The sea is in every breath you take in, every morsel you eat and every drop you drink. The sea is in every sound you hear and in every sound you make. The sea surrounds you, invades you, caresses you and sustains you. Everything in your world is made of the sea, even you yourself. The reason you cannot find the sea is because the sea is everywhere you look. You are born in the sea, live in the sea...and when you die...you will return to the sea. The sea is your life. The sea is all life."

My application of the above is with regard to Leviathans statement:

"In the end, we are merely an ordinary race of mammals that evolved intelligence as a survival trait, in an ordinary solar system on the outskirts of an ordinary galaxy. Our lives are merely blip on the eternity of the universe, and our problems are inconsequential to its function."

I do not find that either of our statements are incongruent with one another. Au contrare, I find them to match up perfectly. If we accept that the 'Universe' is sentient as I have describe, and that we are merely a portion within that sentience, while keeping in mind that the 'Universe' will continue to function irregardless of what actions we take, we should also keep in mind that it is the 'ordinariness' of our being that is significant, as the sheer numbers involved predispose that 'we are not alone'. The question you have to ask yourself...seriously...is how would the sudden appearance of an extraterrestrial intelligence affect your understanding of spirituality? Now ask the second question...What if 'they' told you 'they' were spiritual beings and find it puzzling that we can't see that 'we' are too!?~

JH

The only thing there John, is that Qi is energy. According to physical laws, energy can neither be created nor destroyed. If this is true, it could be taken to mean that each bit of energy is also vital to the whole. Remember that some have called Qi to be vital energy.

In both Taoism and Buddhism, as well as other disciplines which strongly feature this concept, the individual is looked at as a piece of a larger whole. If the law of the Taiji is to be correct, and the Bagua is a correct illustration, each person would be a necessity because of the that person's place in either "fish" as it were.(Yin and Yang have sometimes been described as 'fish' due to the fact that they seem to swim about each other).

I don't know that I agree about us returning to the see upon death. Are you using sea as an illustration for universe?

Yes...the principle of conservation of energy does apply...at least in our 4 dimensional universe. This may or may not be true for higher or other dimensions (and we are looking at 11 now as the number needed to balance out all the equations...or so I'm told).

"I don't know that I agree about us returning to the see upon death. Are you using sea as an illustration for universe?"

Yes. Absolutely. You cannot be seperated from the universe...at least not at this stage. The concept of mind or personality being a construct of the universe at a quantum level instead of at a molecular one has finally started to catch on with the scientific community....since we now have M-theory. This only makes sense...and recent studies in NDE seems to confirm this.

JH

Thank you. I assumed as much but thought it more prudent to ask.

To clarify my position on the matter of spirituality, I believe that spirituality is a natural and positive (for the most part) aspect of humanity stemming out of our intelligence and curiousity concerning the universe. Although I'm a non-religious person, I am a spiritual person. However, I decided long ago that rather than follow the doctrines of an organized religion, I'd come to my own conclusions concerning the universe and my place in it. In a way, I feel that organized religion clouds spirituality within an individual. With it, one no longer tries to seek out the truth within themselves because the truth is written in a book, manuscript, or some other religious text. Not to mention, the texts that we read today have been rewritten thousands of times by priests and scholars and kings to fit the political realities of the day.

So, in summary, I'm simply saying that religion and spirituality are two separate entities and are often mutually exclusive.