Since there are so many interpretations for different techniques within hyung, I thought I'd throw a few techniques out there in various hyung and let everyone respond with their interpretation for each technique. I'll reserve my interpretation until later so that I it won't influence any answers. I thought we would skip the Pyung Ahn hyung for now (but we can come back to it later) and move straight to the 1st Gup - 3rd Dan hyung. In a future post we can discuss 4th Dan - 8th Dan hyung. I've also left out the Naihanji hyung, but feel free to add your thoughts on those as well.

Our organization does not practice the Chil Sung, Yuk Ro, or Hwa Sun hyung (as we are not part of the Federation since 1984), but feel free to continue discussion on those too since I've already read a few posts concering the tai-chi connections in Chil Sung Il Ro, and Chil Sung Ee Ro.

Let's start with Bassai (Pal Che) Dae:

-The technique after the side kick where you bring your hands up above your head with your fingers facing outwards and then proceed to bring them down in a swinging motion towards the center with the fingers facing upwards while in a front stance.

-The technique near the end of the form after the last double high punch/low-punch technique where you swing your arms to both sides and come down with back fist like movements on each side.

Now, lets move on to Chinto (Jinto):

-The technique towards the middle of the form after the low chop block where you seem to push away from your body, and then immediately turn to your right side into a horse-back stance with your palms coming out on each side facing upwards.

-The technique after the above technique where your hands come above your head in a somewhat slow ssang soo sang dan mahk kee and then come out to your sides with your fists closed.

Ok... now for Rohai:

-The technique where you cross your hands and move right into a head butt technique in the beginning of the form.

-The technique where you slap your hand to your foot and then punch towards the ground.

-The technique at the end of the form where you do an uppercut and then jump in 180 degrees in the air and do a center chop block.

Now for Chinte (Sip Soo):

-The technique in the very beginning of the form with the pushing of the hands in opposite directions and then after the second pushing of hands the top hand flips over so that your top hand faces down.

-The 'mountain blocks'

-The technique after the one-legged sang dan/ha dan blocks where your hands are open and on the same side of your body facing outwards

Time for Kong San Koon:

-The technique in the middle of the form where you drop to the floor with both hands touching the floor and then do a low-chop block in that crouching stance.

-The technique after the finger punch near the end where you seem to do bring your hand above your head turn 360 degrees and do a back fist and then a jumping back fist.

Feel free to discuss any techniques I haven't listed as well. I'm very interested in hearing about how everyone performs/envisions these hyung.

Yes...I've always heard that too. But I'm not buying it. It is too contrived. I've got some ideas about the movement...but now that I think about it...they are just as fantastic. I don't think the movement we see today is the correct movement the form had originally.

JH

I've seen another verion of this form , that did a High block & backfist strike , instead of the mountain blocks .

David

There are throws which use a similar movement. Also a movement similar to this occurs in a nei gung sequence in Lau Gar Kuen, a hung gar set.Maybe we are completely of base here?

Kyoshi,
As much as I have come to respect your experience and knowledge I have to say that I disagree with you on what you're saying about the application of the movements in Jutte (SipSoo). Now, I have always been a believer that validity in application is bound by a given practitioner's knowledge, skill, and ability. So, I may be speaking out of those very limitations. In that light, disagree may be the wrong word. However, I think that the movement that you reference as a defense against a bo thrust is a bit risky. In my limited experience with jap/oki weapons much of the time there is a trust straight forward with a bo, it is followed by a quick, circular re-coil. The movemnet from SipSoo, if taken as a defense against this attack, seems to me to assume a fully committed thrust with no follow up. Not to mention using that movement in this manner, particularly if you find yourself in the kima-chaseh (kiba dachi) as it is done in the hyung then you are VERY vulnerable to those sweeps and other leg attacks that those Okinawan's (and some Japanese)are famous for. I personally see arm-locks and throws in the movement.

Mr. Ladd, while I agree with you that the movement as I described it would put one in a position that is vulnerable to any additional attacks, Japanese interpretations of the kata quite commonly contain "hidden movements". In Shotokan (at least the versions that I studied under), this particular kata is comprised almost entirely of blocks and bo "take-aways" against an opponent wielding a bo.

For instance, earlier in this kata there is a sequence of three consectutive palm-heel blocks, supposedly blocking a thrusting bo. On face value, this position is at least as vulnerable as the "mountain block" series is to counterattack, but the actual bunkai of the palm-heel series has quite a different interpretation than the kata actually demonstrates. The first palm-heel is a block, just as shown, but the bo is grasped at the far end away from the attacker; the second is also a block, executed while still grasping the bo, but it is directed at the forward hand of the attacker (on the bo), and grasped at that point, then the bo and the hand are pulled sharply directly away from the attacker; the third palm-heel block (just as in the kata, each block is done with a step toward the attacker)is directed at the rearward hand of the attacker (on the bo), and grasped; with the defender now holding the bo (and both of the attackers hands), the bo is swung outward in a large arc clockwise, from the 6:00 O'clock position up to the 12:00 o'clock position (and farther if needed), from the attackers thrusting position, to over the top of his head, to take possession of the bo away from the attacker, utilizing the leverage advantage that the defenter now enjoys. Both opponents in this last movement are right side forward.

The "mountain block" series follows the same general pattern, except that the bo is blocked with the forward hand and grasped with the rear hand, and the pulling away is accompanied by a hammerfist strike with the lead hand. On the final mountain block movement, after executing the hammerfist strike, the defender rotates into a front stance away from the attacker, while swinging his striking (right) arm around and up under both of the attackers arms, and grasps the bo with his right arm (the defender now also has two hands on the bo), and pulls the bo directly away from the attacker, breaking his grip on the bo, then performs a rearward thrust with the bo to his now empty-handed opponent.

I realize that any attempt to accurately describe the application of a complex sequence of movements from a kata can be a futile exercise, but this was the best I could do without physically showing you what I am trying to describe. I can say without reservation though, that these interpretations do work, and do so very efficiently, as it is almost impossible for the attacker to retain possession of the bo against the movements.

Respectfully yours;
Kyoshi

Would you really do that??? I mean, I do a fair amount of arm conditioning but I know some Okinawan style martial artists with whom I would NEVER consider having my arms meet their bo regardless of the angle of deflection!! Think in terms of a defense against a hand-choke with the your attacker's arms partially extended. You can redirect the choke attempt, or if it is already on your neck, you can gain control of at least one arm. You then have to lower the target of the side kick to the knee, inner thigh, or even the hip or maybe even the solar-plexus although that may be a little to high given the proximity at that point. Yes, you have to slightly modify the hand/arm position and the kick. Consider, though that techniques were HIDDEN in the forms, and given that, we shouldn't assume that the movements should be taken 'ver-batum' (sp?), necessarily, when talking about application.

The truth is...aside from all the silly things I've see..well..predominantly Korean instructors say that sequence is used for (one actually said it was used to block a sword....lol...let's just call him 'stumpy'), the technique is really a spring hip throw. The reason you kick is to pop the person's body up off the ground....and you aren't striking with the foot...you are laying your leg on the outside of theirs and the action of popping your leg straight is the driving force that makes the throw work. I'm not very good at the technique...but my sword master in Korea could literally may you plane out in the air just from popping his leg against yours. Then all he had to do was rotate with is hands and the next thing you were doing was trying to unplug your butthole from the wall where it shot across the room from your landing. LOL!

JH

This is the app I came up with : Your attacker comes in w/ a right lunge punch , at that time you would do a L. Kakie Uke ( hooking block ) , then come down w/ a R. downward elbow to the temple/corner of their eye , then you can either do the sidekick , or it can be a sweep instead .
Another app , that I was actually taught for this move , is if your opponent throws a R. Round kick at you , you deflect it , then side kick them back .
I personally like the Okinawan version of this move , grab their arm , and then either kick them in the arm pit w/ a toe kick , or break their leg w/ a kanstsu geri ( downward side kick ) .

David

This movement in Bassai is done slightly different in Shotokan. The movement starts from a left side forward knife-hand block (the previous move), and represents an opponent grasping your blocking (left) arm with his right (he is right side forward). You then execute a two-handed grasping block by reversing his grip on your left arm, and swinging your right arm in an exaggerated wide clockwise arc, from down low to as far over his head as your reach allows, while wrapping your right wrist over his trapped arm and pinning his grasping wrist to your forearm with your left hand. This forces him to bend the trapped wrist; then you pull both of your arms straight downward and inward, thereby performing a wrist lock on his trapped right arm. The wrist lock will immobilize him, forcing him to bend both his forward elbow and his forward knee. Please note that this technique is accompanied by an overshift to your left of the contracted front stance. Then immediatley pull both your arms (and subsequently his trapped arm) to your abdomen, rotate slightly and execute a low-level side thrust stamping kick to his forward knee.

I know this is a rather convoluted description of what has proven to be a very effective technique, but words can only do so much. This technique does have its limitations though, especially if the opponent is much taller than you are, as it will be difficult to get the wrist lock on him if he is not forced to bend his wrist during the movement. In that case, I would just shoot him instead.

Kyoshi