Biblical Universalist Discussion Forum

Aaron

Jan 20, 08 - 2:25 PM

When does the punishment begin?

In the last month I have been researching Universal Salvation and I am fairly confident with it, but I would like to know what you think about this.

When an unbeliever dies do they go immediately into hell (Luke 16)? Or do they wait for the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20), or the sheep and goat judgment (Matthew 25).

and the same with believers. do they immediately go to be in paradise with Jesus (Luke 23)(by the way didn't Jesus go down to hades to preach there (1 peter 3:19)) ? Or are they asleep in Christ (1 Corinthians 15) and wait for the resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4)?

my main concern with how this relates to hell not being everlasting is, if the rich man went to hell right away would he have done his time by now and be in heaven?

Mike Burke

Jan 20th, 2008 - 8:28 PM

Re: When does the punishment begin?

[Quote] When an unbeliever dies do they go immediately into hell (Luke 16)? [unquote]

Since you brought up the story (some would say "parable") of Lazarus and the rich man, let's take a close look at it.

The rich man's request that Abraham send Lazarus to his father's house (verse 27) presupposes that his five brothers are still physically alive.

It also presupposes that the Messianic age (which begins with the second coming) has not yet arrived.

Father Abraham does not inform the rich man of any time that has elapsed, and he doesn't introduce him to his five brothers (already with him and Lazarus in paradise, or with the rich man himself in Gehenna), so the conversation taking place isn't at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Even if this is a parable, the scene depicted is based on the premise that the dead are conscious.

To believe the dead are unconscious, one must believe that Jesus built this parable around the false premise of a popular belief (even though none of His other parables have a mythological setting.)

Now let's look at verse 26:

and besides all these things, between us and you a great chasm is fixed, so that they who are willing to go over from hence unto you are not able, nor do they from thence to us pass through. (Young's Literal Translation.)

Nothing is said here about this great chasm being permanent.

As Prof. Keith DeRose (of Yale University) points out:

...the universalist needn't deny that there will be punishment, only that such punishment will last forever. And there's no reason at all for her to have to hold that, while the punishment is still going on, those suffering from it can end it at will any time they want, and cross freely from hell to heaven, nor that those in heaven (in this parable, Lazarus is "at Abraham's side") will be allowed to visit hell.

http://pantheon.yale.edu/%7Ekd47/univ.htm#8.

[Quote] and the same with believers. do they immediately go to be in paradise with Jesus (Luke 23)(by the way didn't Jesus go down to hades to preach there (1 peter 3:19))?[unquote]

I believe they go to Sheol (the unseen.)

Pious Jews at the time of Christ hoped to be welcomed into Abraham's bosom when they got there, and expected the wicked to find themselves in a less comfortable position.

Paul expressed a desire to depart and be with the Lord (Phil. 1:23), and even claimed to have already visited paradise (2 Cor. 12:1-4), though he didn't know if he was "in the body," or "out of the body" at the time (same passage.)

There's also some reason to believe that Christ raised paradise with Him when He ascended to heaven:

unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things. (Eph. 4:7-10.)

(In any case, being with the Lord is a more elevated position than Abraham's bosom.)

[Quote]my main concern with how this relates to hell not being everlasting is, if the rich man went to hell right away would he have done his time by now and be in heaven?[unquote]

Not necessarily.

The messengers who left their first estate (whoever you take them to be) have been imprisoned a long time, and they're still awaiting judgment:

Messengers also, even them who had not kept their own principality, but had forsaken their proper dwelling, unto the judgment of the great day in perpetual bonds under thick gloom, hath he reserved. (Jude 6, Rotherham.)

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment(2 Peter 2:4.)

Note that Peter starts out talking about angels, but his main point has to do with men:

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished (verse 9.)

The prophet Isaiah also seems to speak of pre-judgment incarceration:

And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. (Isa. 24:22.)

Aaron

Jan 21st, 2008 - 2:06 PM

Re: When does the punishment begin?

So basically your saying that if i died today i would go to the good part of Sheol? (because if i died and i went to be with Jesus on high then what would the purpose of my resurrection be?)

and my atheist friend would go down to a painful agonizing place in Sheol while they wait to be judged?

then at the second coming i would be resurrected to be in heaven. and later the unbelievers will be resurrected to be judged. Then they will undergo the second death?

Mike Burke

Jan 21st, 2008 - 10:27 PM

Re: When does the punishment begin?

[Quote] if i died and i went to be with Jesus on high then what would the purpose of my resurrection be? [unquote]

My brother's in North Carolina, but I could be with him on the phone tonite if I called his number.

That's different from being with him in person.

If I were in a semi conscious state in the hospital (and he made the trip) I might be aware of him at my bedside, but it wouldn't be an ideal experience for either of us.

Paul said:

For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. (2 Cor. 5:4.)

Why do you suppose he likened our bodies to tents here, and whatever do you suppose he meant by being "unclothed"?

In the resurrection, we will have glorified bodies:

Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Phil. 3:21.)

But we don't get them as soon as we die:

And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us. (Heb. 11:39-40.)

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor. 15:51-52.)

...this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thes. 4:15-17.)

But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. (2 Tim. 2:16-18.)

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. (Rev. 6:9-11.)

[Quote] and my atheist friend would go down to a painful agonizing place in Sheol while they wait to be judged? [unquote]

I believe I said that first century Jews believed that the wicked dead would find themselves in "a less comfortable position" than those who were received into Abraham's bosom.

I don't remember using the terms "painful" or "agonizing," but I'm sure they'll fit the experience of some.

The Rich man's experience is depicted as painful and agonizing, but he's also depicted as having been extremely unmerciful in life (so much so that he was able to dine sumptuously in the presence of a starving man, without throwing him a crumb, on a daily basis.)

Sin and selfishness cause suffering (and to the degree he's conscious of his sins, of the suffering he's caused, and of the personal consequences he may have to face, they bring agony and regret to the sinner.)

Hitler spent weeks in a bunker, seeing The Third Reich crumble around him, and I'm sure his agony began there (even before he took his own life.)

Does this post answer your questions?

Aaron

Jan 22nd, 2008 - 7:40 AM

Re: When does the punishment begin?

Thanks, almost

So when Jesus said "today you will be with me in paradise" he meant in Abraham's bosom in Sheol?

and if the rich man was merely in anguish over what he'd done to Lazarus because of regret then why does he say "I am in anguish in these flames"? are the flames created by his own guilt and not from God?

It just seems like this rich man is getting punishment before the judgment.

Mike Burke

Jan 22nd, 2008 - 9:41 PM

Re: When does the punishment begin?

[Quote] So when Jesus said "today you will be with me in paradise" he meant in Abraham's bosom in Sheol? [unquote]

Have you ever read Josephus' "Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades"?

First century Jews regarded paradise as a sub-compartment of hades (or Sheol.)

And wasn't it you who quoted 1 Peter 3:19, and suggested that Jesus "went down to hades to preach there"?

[Quote] and if the rich man was merely in anguish over what he'd done to Lazarus because of regret then why does he say "I am in anguish in these flames"? are the flames created by his own guilt and not from God? [unquote]

I don't know if the flames are literal or figurative, and I don't see that it matters.

My point was that your question concerning when punishment begins is based on a false premise.

You wrongly assume that a future judgment implies sin has no consequences prior to that judgment.

Judas was tormented by his own conscience all during Christ's trial and crucifixion, and eventually found his guilt (and his sense of impending judgment) so unbearable that he hung himself.

You could say his punishment began then.

The citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah burned to death in a very real fire (sent from God as a consequence of their sins), and you could say their punishment began then.

It makes no difference whether or not you believe that they're conscious in the intermediate state--they were judged and punished for their sins, and they will be judged at the Great White Throne (along with "all the dead, small and great.")

Jesus said:

And whoever will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city! (Mark 6:11.)

He spoke of a future "day of judgment" for Sodom and Gomorrah here, does that imply that they haven't been punished (or that they couldn't be punished before the day arrives)?

Some of those He spoke of here lived to see the Roman/Jewish war of 70 A.D., and (in a sense) their punishment began then.

[Quote] It just seems like this rich man is getting punishment before the judgment. [unquote]

And what would you say of the angels mentioned by Peter and Jude?

Messengers also, even them who had not kept their own principality, but had forsaken their proper dwelling, unto the judgment of the great day in perpetual bonds under thick gloom, hath he reserved. (Jude 6, Rotherham.)

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment (2 Peter 2:4.)

Does it seem to you like they're getting punishment before judgment?

BTW: In my last post, I used Hitler as an example.

He lost the war, saw his empire crumble around him, and (like Judas) took his own life.

In a sense, his punishment began here.

Why should the thought of an unpleasant intermediate state for those who die without knowing Jesus be so difficult for you to accept, when some experience a fair share of pain and anguish (either as a direct judgment from God, or as a consequence of their own sin) right here on earth?

Ed Smith

Jan 23rd, 2008 - 12:59 PM

Re: When does the punishment begin?

It looks like Mike has done well in answering your questions.

Lets look at a verse from that parable.

"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony."

It almost seems that suffering was necessary for purification or proper growth and the rich man lacked it while Lazarus did not. I view all of our current life as our early childhood; from a proper, eternal perspective, it certainly seems that way--these are our formative years. A child (notice Abraham uses the term of affection "Son") who suffers not at all in his earliest years, will undoubtedly suffer much more when he grows up. Often rich kids may have this problem. For example, take a look at Paris Hilton and many others. The rich man was spoiled in life; his fatherly discipline had to come later and was, therefore, much harder to bear. But remember, it is a parable. There was suffering of an intense variety like that of a flame.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." And blessed are the children who are not spoiled and protected from all disappointment when growing up, for they will be happy when they grow up and meet the real world. The spoiled kids will have a very hard time. Eventually, everyone has to face the fact that many of our impulses cannot be met with fulfillment.

By the way, this passage is often used to argue against universalism. However, if you look at the Greek word translated "Son" in that passage, it is a term of endearment. Why would such an affectionate term be used to refer to someone who was cast away forever as hopelessly evil?

Ed

Ed Smith

Jan 23rd, 2008 - 1:02 PM

Re: When does the punishment begin?

What I'm saying is that the "punishment" as you put it has a purpose when ordained by God. It is therapeutic. Have you ever heard anyone say a tough experience would "build your character"? It's true. It's hard to make a person with a will of their own who also has the character to use this will properly. It takes time and suffering for all us children to grow up right. The sooner we submit to the kind hand of our Father, the less we will suffer.

Aaron

Jan 23rd, 2008 - 1:55 PM

Re: When does the punishment begin?

okay thanks

that helps :-)

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Aaron Jan 20, 08 - 2:25 PM	When does the punishment begin? In the last month I have been researching Universal Salvation and I am fairly confident with it, but I would like to know what you think about this. When an unbeliever dies do they go immediately into hell (Luke 16)? Or do they wait for the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20), or the sheep and goat judgment (Matthew 25). and the same with believers. do they immediately go to be in paradise with Jesus (Luke 23)(by the way didn't Jesus go down to hades to preach there (1 peter 3:19)) ? Or are they asleep in Christ (1 Corinthians 15) and wait for the resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4)? my main concern with how this relates to hell not being everlasting is, if the rich man went to hell right away would he have done his time by now and be in heaven?
Mike Burke Jan 20th, 2008 - 8:28 PM	Re: When does the punishment begin? [Quote] When an unbeliever dies do they go immediately into hell (Luke 16)? [unquote] Since you brought up the story (some would say "parable") of Lazarus and the rich man, let's take a close look at it. The rich man's request that Abraham send Lazarus to his father's house (verse 27) presupposes that his five brothers are still physically alive. It also presupposes that the Messianic age (which begins with the second coming) has not yet arrived. Father Abraham does not inform the rich man of any time that has elapsed, and he doesn't introduce him to his five brothers (already with him and Lazarus in paradise, or with the rich man himself in Gehenna), so the conversation taking place isn't at the Great White Throne Judgment. Even if this is a parable, the scene depicted is based on the premise that the dead are conscious. To believe the dead are unconscious, one must believe that Jesus built this parable around the false premise of a popular belief (even though none of His other parables have a mythological setting.) Now let's look at verse 26: and besides all these things, between us and you a great chasm is fixed, so that they who are willing to go over from hence unto you are not able, nor do they from thence to us pass through. (Young's Literal Translation.) Nothing is said here about this great chasm being permanent. As Prof. Keith DeRose (of Yale University) points out: ...the universalist needn't deny that there will be punishment, only that such punishment will last forever. And there's no reason at all for her to have to hold that, while the punishment is still going on, those suffering from it can end it at will any time they want, and cross freely from hell to heaven, nor that those in heaven (in this parable, Lazarus is "at Abraham's side") will be allowed to visit hell. http://pantheon.yale.edu/%7Ekd47/univ.htm#8. [Quote] and the same with believers. do they immediately go to be in paradise with Jesus (Luke 23)(by the way didn't Jesus go down to hades to preach there (1 peter 3:19))?[unquote] I believe they go to Sheol (the unseen.) Pious Jews at the time of Christ hoped to be welcomed into Abraham's bosom when they got there, and expected the wicked to find themselves in a less comfortable position. Paul expressed a desire to depart and be with the Lord (Phil. 1:23), and even claimed to have already visited paradise (2 Cor. 12:1-4), though he didn't know if he was "in the body," or "out of the body" at the time (same passage.) There's also some reason to believe that Christ raised paradise with Him when He ascended to heaven: unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things. (Eph. 4:7-10.) (In any case, being with the Lord is a more elevated position than Abraham's bosom.) [Quote]my main concern with how this relates to hell not being everlasting is, if the rich man went to hell right away would he have done his time by now and be in heaven?[unquote] Not necessarily. The messengers who left their first estate (whoever you take them to be) have been imprisoned a long time, and they're still awaiting judgment: Messengers also, even them who had not kept their own principality, but had forsaken their proper dwelling, unto the judgment of the great day in perpetual bonds under thick gloom, hath he reserved. (Jude 6, Rotherham.) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment(2 Peter 2:4.) Note that Peter starts out talking about angels, but his main point has to do with men: The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished (verse 9.) The prophet Isaiah also seems to speak of pre-judgment incarceration: And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. (Isa. 24:22.) Email: admin@biblicaluniversalist.com Website: http://www.biblicaluniversalist.com
Aaron Jan 21st, 2008 - 2:06 PM	Re: When does the punishment begin? So basically your saying that if i died today i would go to the good part of Sheol? (because if i died and i went to be with Jesus on high then what would the purpose of my resurrection be?) and my atheist friend would go down to a painful agonizing place in Sheol while they wait to be judged? then at the second coming i would be resurrected to be in heaven. and later the unbelievers will be resurrected to be judged. Then they will undergo the second death?
Mike Burke Jan 21st, 2008 - 10:27 PM	Re: When does the punishment begin? [Quote] if i died and i went to be with Jesus on high then what would the purpose of my resurrection be? [unquote] My brother's in North Carolina, but I could be with him on the phone tonite if I called his number. That's different from being with him in person. If I were in a semi conscious state in the hospital (and he made the trip) I might be aware of him at my bedside, but it wouldn't be an ideal experience for either of us. Paul said: For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. (2 Cor. 5:4.) Why do you suppose he likened our bodies to tents here, and whatever do you suppose he meant by being "unclothed"? In the resurrection, we will have glorified bodies: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Phil. 3:21.) But we don't get them as soon as we die: And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us. (Heb. 11:39-40.) Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor. 15:51-52.) ...this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thes. 4:15-17.) But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. (2 Tim. 2:16-18.) When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. (Rev. 6:9-11.) [Quote] and my atheist friend would go down to a painful agonizing place in Sheol while they wait to be judged? [unquote] I believe I said that first century Jews believed that the wicked dead would find themselves in "a less comfortable position" than those who were received into Abraham's bosom. I don't remember using the terms "painful" or "agonizing," but I'm sure they'll fit the experience of some. The Rich man's experience is depicted as painful and agonizing, but he's also depicted as having been extremely unmerciful in life (so much so that he was able to dine sumptuously in the presence of a starving man, without throwing him a crumb, on a daily basis.) Sin and selfishness cause suffering (and to the degree he's conscious of his sins, of the suffering he's caused, and of the personal consequences he may have to face, they bring agony and regret to the sinner.) Hitler spent weeks in a bunker, seeing The Third Reich crumble around him, and I'm sure his agony began there (even before he took his own life.) Does this post answer your questions? Email: admin@biblicaluniversalist Website: http://www.biblicaluniversalist.com
Aaron Jan 22nd, 2008 - 7:40 AM	Re: When does the punishment begin? Thanks, almost So when Jesus said "today you will be with me in paradise" he meant in Abraham's bosom in Sheol? and if the rich man was merely in anguish over what he'd done to Lazarus because of regret then why does he say "I am in anguish in these flames"? are the flames created by his own guilt and not from God? It just seems like this rich man is getting punishment before the judgment.
Mike Burke Jan 22nd, 2008 - 9:41 PM	Re: When does the punishment begin? [Quote] So when Jesus said "today you will be with me in paradise" he meant in Abraham's bosom in Sheol? [unquote] Have you ever read Josephus' "Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades"? First century Jews regarded paradise as a sub-compartment of hades (or Sheol.) And wasn't it you who quoted 1 Peter 3:19, and suggested that Jesus "went down to hades to preach there"? [Quote] and if the rich man was merely in anguish over what he'd done to Lazarus because of regret then why does he say "I am in anguish in these flames"? are the flames created by his own guilt and not from God? [unquote] I don't know if the flames are literal or figurative, and I don't see that it matters. My point was that your question concerning when punishment begins is based on a false premise. You wrongly assume that a future judgment implies sin has no consequences prior to that judgment. Judas was tormented by his own conscience all during Christ's trial and crucifixion, and eventually found his guilt (and his sense of impending judgment) so unbearable that he hung himself. You could say his punishment began then. The citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah burned to death in a very real fire (sent from God as a consequence of their sins), and you could say their punishment began then. It makes no difference whether or not you believe that they're conscious in the intermediate state--they were judged and punished for their sins, and they will be judged at the Great White Throne (along with "all the dead, small and great.") Jesus said: And whoever will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city! (Mark 6:11.) He spoke of a future "day of judgment" for Sodom and Gomorrah here, does that imply that they haven't been punished (or that they couldn't be punished before the day arrives)? Some of those He spoke of here lived to see the Roman/Jewish war of 70 A.D., and (in a sense) their punishment began then. [Quote] It just seems like this rich man is getting punishment before the judgment. [unquote] And what would you say of the angels mentioned by Peter and Jude? Messengers also, even them who had not kept their own principality, but had forsaken their proper dwelling, unto the judgment of the great day in perpetual bonds under thick gloom, hath he reserved. (Jude 6, Rotherham.) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment (2 Peter 2:4.) Does it seem to you like they're getting punishment before judgment? BTW: In my last post, I used Hitler as an example. He lost the war, saw his empire crumble around him, and (like Judas) took his own life. In a sense, his punishment began here. Why should the thought of an unpleasant intermediate state for those who die without knowing Jesus be so difficult for you to accept, when some experience a fair share of pain and anguish (either as a direct judgment from God, or as a consequence of their own sin) right here on earth? Email: admin@biblicaluniversalist Website: http://www.biblicaluniversalist.com
Ed Smith Jan 23rd, 2008 - 12:59 PM	Re: When does the punishment begin? It looks like Mike has done well in answering your questions. Lets look at a verse from that parable. "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony." It almost seems that suffering was necessary for purification or proper growth and the rich man lacked it while Lazarus did not. I view all of our current life as our early childhood; from a proper, eternal perspective, it certainly seems that way--these are our formative years. A child (notice Abraham uses the term of affection "Son") who suffers not at all in his earliest years, will undoubtedly suffer much more when he grows up. Often rich kids may have this problem. For example, take a look at Paris Hilton and many others. The rich man was spoiled in life; his fatherly discipline had to come later and was, therefore, much harder to bear. But remember, it is a parable. There was suffering of an intense variety like that of a flame. "Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." And blessed are the children who are not spoiled and protected from all disappointment when growing up, for they will be happy when they grow up and meet the real world. The spoiled kids will have a very hard time. Eventually, everyone has to face the fact that many of our impulses cannot be met with fulfillment. By the way, this passage is often used to argue against universalism. However, if you look at the Greek word translated "Son" in that passage, it is a term of endearment. Why would such an affectionate term be used to refer to someone who was cast away forever as hopelessly evil? Ed Email: packcover@hotmail.com
Ed Smith Jan 23rd, 2008 - 1:02 PM	Re: When does the punishment begin? What I'm saying is that the "punishment" as you put it has a purpose when ordained by God. It is therapeutic. Have you ever heard anyone say a tough experience would "build your character"? It's true. It's hard to make a person with a will of their own who also has the character to use this will properly. It takes time and suffering for all us children to grow up right. The sooner we submit to the kind hand of our Father, the less we will suffer. Email: packcover@hotmail.com
Aaron Jan 23rd, 2008 - 1:55 PM	Re: When does the punishment begin? okay thanks that helps :-)