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David
Oct 31, 07 - 3:19 PM |
John 2:2
Can someone shed some light upon the below article. The author is trying to say that 1 John 2:2 is not actually talking about believers and unbelievers alike when it says, "..but also for those of the whole world". I find his argument almost idiotic as he cites the prayer of Jesus in John 17:9 as his proof. How can one prayer which Christ made for his followers and not everyone else show that 1 John 2:2 (which is a very clear verse) is speaking only about the "Elect"? Any insight on the verse and article is very much appreciated. http://www.soundofgrace.com/jgr/index073.htm |
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Ed Smith
Nov 1st, 2007 - 9:51 AM |
Re: John 2:2
He argues by first trying to justify his belief in limited atonement from other scripture. He takes a long time to get around to it, but his take on 1 John 2:2 is the standard one for those who believe in limited atonement. Specifically, if you believe in limited atonement, you must assume that John was writing to Jewish Christians (that is referenced in "our" sins) and the "whole world" emphasizes the inclusion of all the Gentile nations. The problem is that those who believe he was writing to Jews do so because they believe in limited atonement and for no other reason. All evidence points to a primarily Gentile audience. For example, internally, there is the Gnostic heresy which came from the Greeks. Externally, there is much reason to expect that John was associating with Gentiles at the time. In fact, it is very likely he lived in Ephesus. This is in harmony with the 7 churches of Revelation all being in Turkey as well. It is thought that this book was written around the same time, late in his life when, by popular demand, he wrote down many of the things he had been teaching the church for some years. Ed |
Barry
 Feb 2nd, 2008 - 6:00 PM |
Re: John 2:2
Hi David A little late but perhaps you will see this anyway. Quote from that article: "I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. (NIV, emphasis added) Our Lord "speaks to the Father" in behalf of those who are his own. This text clearly disallows the idea that Jesus makes intercession for all men without exception. The words in the text just will not allow such an interpretation. When Jesus specifically insists that he does not pray for the world, but only for those his Father gave him, we must accept what he says." End quote. The context of John chapter 17 has a specific thrust toward the priestly calling of believers. That being to minister outward the message of reconciliation. But to take this and then claim limited atonement is not only out of the context of what John chapter 17 it is against the very words of Jesus. The words of Jesus: Luk 23:33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, FATHER, FORGIVE THEM; for they know not what they do. Lets look at the wording of 1 John 2:1-2 1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and NOT FOR OURS ONLY, but also for [the sins of] THE WHOLE WORLD. Is this the only time where this author uses the term "the whole world"? A rhetorical question with a, no it is not! 1Jo 5:19 [And] we know that WE ARE OF GOD, and THE WHOLE WORLD lieth in wickedness. John is clearly teaching comprehensive atonement. Hope this makes sense :) Barry |
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spiffy
Feb 2nd, 2008 - 8:15 PM |
Re: John 2:2
"Can someone shed some light upon the below article. The author is trying to say that 1 John 2:2 is not actually talking about believers and unbelievers alike when it says, "..but also for those of the whole world". I find his argument almost idiotic as he cites the prayer of Jesus in John 17:9 as his proof. How can one prayer which Christ made for his followers and not everyone else show that 1 John 2:2 (which is a very clear verse) is speaking only about the "Elect"? Any insight on the verse and article is very much appreciated." David, the easiest way to remember when our eternal tormentist brethren point out the particular salvation of the church is that salvation exists in a dichotomy: the church in time (temporal) and all eventually (eternal). Rom 11 is the clearest of Paul's teachings on this important distinction; compare this wtih 1Tim 4:10. Paul expounds on salvation's eternal sense (as per Rom 5:15-18, 1Cor 15:22), its temporal sense (Rom 2:28-29, 2Cor 2:15), and mixes the two freely in his teachings, again as in Rom 11. Christ calls all in life, but not all respond to the salting fire necessary to cleanse and purify. The stubborn appear to get cleansed upon passing from this life in the pure, holy fire of God's righteousness as He wraps His loving arms around even the most stubborn and melts away what causes their rage against Him. It appears we're given the option of being healed the easy way in time (progressively) or the hard way in passing (eternal Fire, second death). Either way is salvation/restoration. |
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