Biblical Universalist Discussion Forum
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Rob
Oct 30, 07 - 1:03 PM |
Question About Hebrews 10
To anyone of the universalist view- how do you read the Hebrews 10 passage that speaks of God applying "jugment without mercy"? My guess is that you say that it is "without mercy" for a season- is that correct? Just for the time of its duration? |
Ed Smith
Oct 30th, 2007 - 1:23 PM |
Re: Question About Hebrews 10
I'm not sure which verse in Hebrews you are speaking of, however, what you said sounds reasonable to avoid a perpetual punishment, assuming the phrase "without mercy" is applied in some context, scriptural or otherwise. The expressions "show no mercy" or "with no mercy" are commonly used in our culture, but never refer to endless suffering. A parent might even tell a child, "if you do this again, you'll be punished, and I'll show no mercy this time." Probably, in such a case, the parent is not planning to consign the child to perpetual suffering of any kind. Ed |
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Rob
Oct 30th, 2007 - 8:26 PM |
Re: Question About Hebrews 10
http://www.reformed.org/eschaton/index.html?mainframe=/eschaton/pink_eternal_punishment.html Pink mentions it in the section: 4. THE UTTER HOPELESSNESS OF THE LOST. Thanks for your reply. The Moses context: he that despised Moses' law died without mercy. Now were these folks lost forever though? |
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Rob
Oct 31st, 2007 - 7:48 AM |
Re: Question About Hebrews 10
My point about the Moses passage is a challenge to the ET proponent- the ET proponent would have to say (if he wished to remain consistent) that the people that the people that died without mercy in Moses' day were necessarily lost forever. The question is whether they all were punished in the afterlife. That may still be unclear... |
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Ed Smith
Oct 31st, 2007 - 8:37 AM |
Re: Question About Hebrews 10
Thanks for clarifying; that was the only place I saw "without mercy," but the point made by referring to those executed under Mosaic law in ancient Israel only seems to be that there are some who *deserve* a more severe punishment. Most universalists talk about punishments being meted out which are much more severe than death. So, even if we assume this is saying some will get as harsh a punishment as they deserve, it doesn't seem to cause problems with the universalist view. I know some would disagree, but to me this passage looks like it is talking about the discipline God may bring on a believer in this life. That might include execution as was given to some who broke the Law of Moses and was given to Ananias and Sapphira. There are some scary passages like this in scripture which should make us all take our path of sanctification more seriously. We hear the expression "tough love" these days, often in the context of dealing with rebellious teenagers. With a love as great as God's love, what could His tough love be like? Pretty tough, sometimes. Ed |
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Rob
Oct 31st, 2007 - 8:57 AM |
Re: Question About Hebrews 10
I don't think that the Ananias and Sapphira example works here, for the author of Heb. is saying that this punishment is "sorer" than capital punishment. Am I making a good point here? Blessings, Rob Ed, you sound like you are a good thinker! Do you mind if I email you some time? |
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Ed Smith
Nov 1st, 2007 - 5:09 PM |
Re: Question About Hebrews 10
The way it reads for me in the NASB is as follows: "Anyone who sets aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer a punishment do you *think* he will *deserve* who has...." It does not say any more severe punishment will be given, but it asks us to think, with the implication being that a more severe punishment is deserved. We don't always get something as bad as we deserve. "Without mercy" does not seem to apply in the second verse. It's meaning in the first verse is that those who set aside the Law were given the maximum punishment available to the legal authorities of the time--that is, they were shown no mercy. Of course, even if such a person in view in the second verse is given more severe punishment than death, there are plenty of such punishments short of eternal torment. I even think there are plenty of things which can happen to us this side of the grave which are worse than death. >Do you mind if I email you some time? I don't mind at all. Regards, Ed |
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Ed Smith
Nov 1st, 2007 - 5:10 PM |
Re: Question About Hebrews 10
I meant to say that I think the thrust of the passage is that we should know that we might ought to be afraid of being dealt with like Ananias and Sapphira, because in the conditions mentioned here, we would actually deserve even worse. Ed |
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