Biblical Universalist Discussion Forum
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David
Oct 3, 07 - 7:16 AM |
Romans 8:20-23
I recently heard a sermon on this passage and the pastor, who believes in eternal torment, said this passage (when speaking of "the creation" and "the whole creation") is only referring to non-rational beings and the physical elements of the creation, and not Humans or Heavenly beings. Now, obviously this would have to be the stance of anyone who believes in ET as the passage clearly says the "whole creation". Regardless of the meaning of this passage it does not disprove UR. However, I'm curious as to what the "creation" and "whole creation" is referring to in this passage? Any help is greatly appreciated. Romans 8:20-23: "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body." |
Mike Burke
 Oct 3rd, 2007 - 12:03 PM |
Re: Romans 8:20-23
[Quote] Regardless of the meaning of this passage it does not disprove UR. [unquote] True. There's still Col. 1:16-20, 1 Tim. 4:10, Heb. 12:23, etc. [Quote] I recently heard a sermon on this passage and the pastor...said this passage (when speaking of "the creation" and "the whole creation") is only referring to non-rational beings and the physical elements of the creation, and not Humans or Heavenly beings. [unquote] I believe "hope" would be better translated "expectation," and the context does seem to speak of those whose subjection to futility (unlike that of sinning men and angels) was unwilling. Man was subjected to futility because of Adam and Eve's willful disobedience, but the creatures man was to have dominion over ended up suffering in a fallen world not of their own making. G-d Bless. |
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tm55
Oct 12th, 2007 - 3:06 PM |
Re: Romans 8:20-23
FYI, in Hope Beyond Hell (pg. 110) Gerry Beauchemin argues that "creation" in Romans 8:19-23 includes all people because ... a. No part of creation groans and labors with birth pangs more than people. b. "creature" / "creation" clearly refers to people in these passages ... 1. Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature (Mk. 16:15) 2. If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation (II Cor. 5:17) 3. In Christ, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails but a new creation (Gal. 6:15) Makes sense to me :-) |
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Mike Burke
Oct 13th, 2007 - 7:38 PM |
Re: Romans 8:20-23
[Quote] FYI, in Hope Beyond Hell (pg. 110) Gerry Beauchemin argues that "creation" in Romans 8:19-23 includes all people [unquote] But what you both overlook is that the creation/creatures spoken of in Romans 8 are distinguished from "the sons of God" in verses 19 and 21 (and sons are sons, whether they're firstborn, or later born.) [Quote] No part of creation groans and labors with birth pangs more than people. [unquote] And how would you know that? Why did God say: And should I not pity Nineveh, that great city, in which are more than one hundred and twenty thousand persons who cannot discern between their right hand and their left--and much livestock?" (Jonah 4:11)? And: A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel. (Prov.12:10)? Are you so blind as to believe that animals don't suffer? Isn't it possible that they suffer more than humans (who can better understand their suffering, and put it in some kind of context)? BTW: Have you forgotten that a beast of burden once spoke? Did God put word's in the beast's mouth that would wrongly lead us to believe animals have feelings, or did He simply open her mouth (as scripture says He did)? Then the LORD opened the donkey's mouth, and she said to Balaam, "What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?" Balaam answered the donkey, "You have made a fool of me! If I had a sword in my hand, I would kill you right now." The donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?" "No," he said. Then the LORD opened Balaam's eyes, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the road with his sword drawn. So he bowed low and fell facedown. The angel of the LORD asked him, "Why have you beaten your donkey these three times? I have come here to oppose you because your path is a reckless one before me. The donkey saw me and turned away from me these three times. If she had not turned away, I would certainly have killed you by now, but I would have spared her."(Nu. 22:28-33.) [Quote] "creature" / "creation" clearly refers to people in these passages [unquote] You've overlooked the fact that none of the passages he quoted are in the immediate context of Romans 8:19-23. |
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