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Zach
Aug 31, 07 - 3:19 AM |
Arminianism or Calvinism?
Based simply on the Bible and not on moral conceptions, which do you think is the more plausible explanation for eternal torment? Personally, I can't accept Arminianism at all for a great many reasons. I believe that if God wants to save anyone He will, I just don't know if He wants to save everyone. I know Talbott seems to think that a Calvinist (or, as he says, Augustinian) reading of the NT is far less plausible than an Arminian reading; but I honestly can't see where he's coming from there (not to mention that I object to free will on philosophical grounds). |
Mike Burke
 Aug 31st, 2007 - 5:21 AM |
Re: Arminianism or Calvinism?
My understanding is that classic Calvinists are Augustinian, which means that they do not object to freewill per se--what they object to is the idea that fallen man's free will is strong enough to respond to God without prevenient grace. From Augustine's point of view, Adam's sin (which we all inherited) was freely chosen--God foresaw and allowed it, but it was an exercise of freewill, and this is the starting point for both Augustine and Calvin. They believe that God is under no obligation to save anyone precisely because they believe we're all (as a result of Adam's free choice) totally depraved. Take freewill from Adam, and Calvin's predestination becomes even more monstrous than it already appears to many. If you object to freewill itself ("on philosophical grounds" as you say), your thinking must come from outside the Calvinist/Augustinian tradition. Also, I think you misunderstand Talbott's position on the subject. He doesn't deny God's foreknowledge (or even a certain amount of relative determinism), what he denies is that God was free to create the creatures He wanted without allowing them to make mistakes. He wrote: I believe that our freedom plays an essential role in the process whereby God, first, brings us into existence as rational and self-aware beings, and second, perfects us as his sons and daughters. But as a universalist, I also accept two additional Pauline claims: (1) that the very same "all" who died in Adam will most assuredly be made alive in Christ (I Corinthians 15:22), and (2) that our destiny "depends not on human will or exertion, but upon God who shows mercy" (Romans 9:16). http://www.willamette.edu/~ttalbott/freewill.html I'd suggest you read the entire article. G-d Bless. |
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Mike Burke
Sep 1st, 2007 - 6:06 AM |
Re: Arminianism or Calvinism?
P.S. Calvin emphasized God's sovereignty, Arminius emphasized man's freewill, and I believe both concepts are biblical. Elhanan Winchester once wrote: When I first came into England, being in company with several ministers, and others, an Old Gentleman put this question to me, and great emphasis and importance, "Are you a Calvinist or an Arminian?" To which I replied, "I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian." At which he seemed greatly surprised, imagining all Christians must rank under one or other of these names. He then desired to know of what religion I was. I gave him the following information: "Sir, my religion is this, I read the Bible for myself, and what that teaches me to believe, I sincerely believe, according to the best light I have, without any regard to what others may think; and what I find there commanded I endeavour to practise. I do not rank under the standard of Calvin, nor Arminius; I know nothing about them, having never read their works, and I am determined never to call myself after either of their names, or that of any other man." http://www.biblicaluniversalist.com/ToWesley.html Though the CV uses "voluntary," the term "free-will" occurs numerous times in reference to offerings in Young's literal translation (and there can be no volition without freewill.) Jesus said "`Ye did not choose me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), but He also said "Mary has chosen that good part, which will not be taken away from her" (Luke 10:42.) Paul tells us that it's God who works in us "both to will and to do for His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13), but he also tells us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12.) I don't believe asking whether Calvinism is more biblical than Arminianism is a valid question, as I believe both contain elements of truth. G-d Bless. |
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