Biblical Universalist Discussion Forum
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David
Aug 29, 07 - 9:41 AM |
Verses supporting Universal Reconciliation
I would like for everyone to please post verses supporting universal reconciliation which are not well known. If the verse is not self-explanatory please explain how/why it supports UR. I am currently composing a huge list of verses [supporting UR] for a website which I am creating. I believe I have obtained most of the well-known verses supporting UR and would like to discover some of the less well-known verses. Any help is greatly appreciated! |
Mike Burke
 Aug 29th, 2007 - 10:25 AM |
Re: Verses supporting Universal Reconciliation
You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. (Heb. 12:22-23.) In Greek, "firstborn" is a plural adjective, and cannot refer to Christ alone. This ties in with something the Apostle James wrote: Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:18.) By itself, the last verse could be taken to mean that the first century believers to whom James wrote were a kind of firstfruits--but if the entire Church of this age is called "The Church of the First Born," that seems unlikely (especially when we remember that there were Old Testament saints, and they'll be included in the first resurrection.) G-d Bless. P.S. If you let me know when you've finished that web site, you might have a link. 
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Zach
Aug 29th, 2007 - 2:48 PM |
Re: Verses supporting Universal Reconciliation
Take a look at Ezekiel 16. The whole chapter, but particularly verses 53-63. It appears to prophesy that "the daughters" of Samaria, Sodom, and Israel will all be restored. Wesley claims in his commentary that "Sodom and Samaria never were restored to that state they had been in; nor were the two tribes ever made so rich, mighty, and renowned, though God brought some of them out of Babylon: the words confirm an irrecoverably low, and despised state, of the Jews in their temporals," and that the promises at the end of the chapter apply to "the remnant" only, but those who are to be punished and those who are to be restored are addressed in the exact same way. He also is forced to claim that the elder and younger sisters Israel will receive, and will be given as daughters (v. 61) are the Gentile nations which are richer and poorer in wealth than Israel; yet this interpretation clashes with the text in that Israel's elder sister is said to be Samaria, and her younger is said to be Sodom (v. 46). The idea that Samaria and Sodom are the sisters Israel will receive is also very similar to verses 53 and 55; and since the people of Samaria and Sodom appear to be spoken of here, I must conclude that this passage appears to advocate a reconciliation after death. I want to add that there may be another way of interpreting this prophecy, but I am not aware of any good ones at this moment. |
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Zach
Aug 30th, 2007 - 2:43 AM |
Re: Verses supporting Universal Reconciliation
I've been looking at some more commentaries on the Ezekiel passage. Here's something Matthew Henry has to say about it (though he says that Wesley's interpretation, mentioned above, is the predominant one): "And some think that what is said of the return of Sodom and Samaria (v. 53, 55), and of Jerusalem with them, is a promise; it may be understood so, if by Sodom we understand (as Grotius and some of the Jewish writers do) the Moabites and Ammonites, the posterity of Lot, who once dwelt in Sodom; their captivity was returned (Jer. 48:47; 49:6), as was that of many of the ten tribes, and Judah's with them." John Gill: "... this is to be understood of the calling of the Gentiles, comparable to Sodom for their wickedness, as the great city of Rome is, Revelation 11:8; and of the calling of God's elect among the ten tribes, scattered up and down among the Gentiles, by the preaching of the apostles; and when the fulness of the Gentiles is brought in then will follow the conversion of the Jews, and all Israel will be sawed, Romans 11:25; for it is certain those sisters, Sodom and Samaria, were to be restored, and received into the church, and given to her for daughters, Ezekiel 16:61; thus the conversion, of the Gentiles is signified by bringing again the captivity of Moab and Ammon, in Jeremiah 48:47." Jamieson, Faussett and Brown: "Sodom itself was not so restored (Jer 20:16), but Ammon and Moab (her representatives, as sprung from Lot who dwelt in Sodom) were (Jer 48:47; 49:6); probably most of the ten tribes and the adjoining nations, Ammon and Moab, &c., were in part restored under Cyrus; but the full realization of the restoration is yet future; the heathen nations to be brought to Christ being typified by "Sodom," whose sins they now reproduce (De 32:32)." Is there any particular reason anyone can see that those interpretations don't work? Elhanan Winchester seems to discount the "Moab and Ammon" theory, saying that Lot and his daughters, the only ones who escaped, "were only sojourners, and were the descendants of Terah and relations to Abraham." He also mentions that someone had suggested that the land the cities were on would be restored during the millenium, and hence that the Dead Sea would dry up; but he argues against that by saying that Ezekiel 47:8-11 shows that the Dead Sea will remain. (See The Universal Restoration, pages 208-211, for Winchester's arguments on this: http://www.isitso.org/guide/wyatt.html) However, I believe it's unknown whether Sodom was actually located under the Dead Sea. Someone did claim to discover their ruins, but his claims are highly disputed: http://www.isitso.org/guide/wyatt.html The difficulty with the two interpretations I mentioned is that the descendants of Lot would be unlikely to be identified with Sodom; when Sodom is spoken of in Ezekiel 16, it seems to be referring specifically to the Sodom that was condemned, and thus I think it is unlikely to refer to the descendants of the very people in it who were considered to be righteous. Thus, while the restoration of the very people of Sodom isn't the only possible interpretation, it appears to me to be the most plausible one. Can anyone offer any support or criticism of this? |
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Mike Burke
Aug 30th, 2007 - 6:05 AM |
Re: Verses supporting Universal Reconciliation
[Quote] The difficulty with the two interpretations I mentioned is that the descendants of Lot would be unlikely to be identified with Sodom; when Sodom is spoken of in Ezekiel 16, it seems to be referring specifically to the Sodom that was condemned, and thus I think it is unlikely to refer to the descendants of the very people in it who were considered to be righteous. [unquote] I agree with you. [Quote] Elhanan Winchester seems to discount the "Moab and Ammon" theory, saying that Lot and his daughters, the only ones who escaped, "were only sojourners, and were the descendants of Terah and relations to Abraham." [unquote] I think he made a good point there. [Quote] He also mentions that someone had suggested that the land the cities were on would be restored during the millenium, and hence that the Dead Sea would dry up; but he argues against that by saying that Ezekiel 47:8-11 shows that the Dead Sea will remain. [unquote] I think what Elhanan was arguing against here, was the idea that it was only the cities (and not the inhabitants) who were to be restored. G-d Bless. |
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Zach
Aug 30th, 2007 - 6:15 AM |
Re: Verses supporting Universal Reconciliation
Yes, that was what he meant. How I wish I could have talked with the man. |
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Mike Burke
Aug 30th, 2007 - 6:24 AM |
Re: Verses supporting Universal Reconciliation
[Quote] How I wish I could have talked with the man. [unquote] Me too--and if what his biographers say about John Wesley's personal views (in his later years) is true, it would also be interesting to talk to him. G-d Bless. |
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David
Aug 30th, 2007 - 12:56 PM |
Re: Verses supporting Universal Reconciliation
Thanks guys, great stuff. Please [everyone] post more. |
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David
Aug 30th, 2007 - 1:00 PM |
Re: Verses supporting Universal Reconciliation
Also, could you tell me more about Wesley's views in his later years or possibly point me to some sources.. |
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Mike Burke
Aug 30th, 2007 - 3:17 PM |
Re: Verses supporting Universal Reconciliation
[Quote] Also, could you tell me more about Wesley's views in his later years or possibly point me to some sources.. [unquote] See Elhanan Winchester's Biography, starting at the bottom of page 107. http://books.google.com/books?id=f7W0pXYq-AsC&pg=PA9#PPA107,M1 |
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Mike Burke
Aug 30th, 2007 - 9:57 PM |
Re: Verses supporting Universal Reconciliation
Here is the part that I found interesting: The friendship contracted with Mr. Wesley was severed only by death. This occurred in 1791. Mr. Winchester paid a just tribute to his memory by a funeral discourse which was published...It is also said, that near the close of his life, he expressed to Mr. Winchester his belief in the restoration. He remarked that he had written a sermon on the subject which he had placed in the care of a printer to be published after his decease--that he had paid him for so doing, and had given him a strict injunction to sell no copies, but to distribute them gratuitously to the world...(pgs. 107-108.)
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Zach
Aug 30th, 2007 - 10:13 PM |
Re: Verses supporting Universal Reconciliation
Very interesting. It would be nice to have that sermon (if, indeed, it ever existed). |
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Mike Burke
Aug 31st, 2007 - 12:13 AM |
Re: Verses supporting Universal Reconciliation
It would be nice to have that sermon, but I'm not surprised that it wasn't published. What I found surprising was the following: An Edition of Brook's Fool of Quality, a work in which the restoration was taught, was published under Mr. Wesley's supervision...Charles Bonnet...wrote two Theological works, viz. Philosophical and Critical Inquiries concerning Christianity, and Conjectures Concerning Future Happiness. In both these works the restoration is inculcated. In 1787 the latter was republished by Mr. Wesley. He introduced it with the following prefatory commendation...I am happy in communicating to men of sense in this kingdom, and at a very low price, one of the most sensible tracts I ever read. (Biography of Elhanan Winchester, pages 109-110.) http://books.google.com/books?id=f7W0pXYq-AsC&pg=PA9#PPA109,M1 I believe Wesley's unpublished sermon is entirely credible, and it's equally likely that he held this opinion privately for many years. (He was well versed in the Church Fathers, and many of those who believed in universal restoration didn't believe in shouting it from the house tops.) G-d Bless. |
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Mike Burke
Sep 9th, 2007 - 10:51 PM |
Re: Verses supporting Universal Reconciliation
P.S. It's well known that some of the Church Fathers believed in Universal Salvation, and were at the same time hesitant to publicly discuss something they felt the immature would only use as an excuse to delay repentance, continue in sin, and increase the severity of their own judgment. (This is why I said that not all who held this doctrine in the early centuries believed in shouting it from the house tops.) Here is a quote from St. Jerome: ...those who maintain that punishment will one day come to an end, and that torments have a limit, though after long periods, use as proofs the following testimonies of Scripture:--When the fullness of the Gentiles shall have come in, then all Israel shall be saved; and again, God hath concluded all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all; and again, I will praise thee, O Lord, for Thou wast angry with me; Thou hadst turned thy face from me; but Thou hast comforted me. The Lord Himself also says to the sinner, When the fierceness of my wrath hath passed, I will heal him. And this is what is said in another place:--Oh, how great is thy goodness, which Thou hast laid up for them that fear Thee. All which testimonies of Scripture they urge in reply against us, while they earnestly assert that after certain sufferings and torments there will be restoration. All which nevertheless they allow should not now be openly told to those with whom fear yet acts as a motive, and who may be kept from sinning by the terror of punishment. But this question we ought to leave to the wisdom of God alone, whose judgments as well as mercies are by weight and measure, and who well knows whom, and how, and how long, He ought to judge. (Commentary on Isaiah.) This is called The Doctrine of Reserve, and Wesley (like any student of Patristic literature) would have been well aware of it. I would also point out that this doctrine is not entirely without scriptural support: However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. (1 Cor. 2:6.) For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. (Heb. 5:12-14.) ...to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. (Luke 12:48.) If Wesley had come to believe in UR, he may at first have felt it best to hold that opinion privately (and over time, he may have come to feel that a sermon on UR would do no more than provide some needed balance to a Church that had been dogmatically preaching eternal torment for too long.) |
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Brad
Nov 22nd, 2007 - 2:16 AM |
Re: Verses supporting Universal Reconciliation
You might find some of the verses on the following page helpful. Go half way down the page and read the section "A Mystery" http://www.jesus-wept.org/salvation.htm |
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Tim O'Connor
Feb 25th, 2008 - 9:12 AM |
Re: Verses supporting Universal Reconciliation
. . . Christian Universalism - Bible references . . . . Universal Renewal: God creates all things new... Rev 21:5 God saves all that is lost through His Son Jesus: Lk 19:10 Immortal future: Matt 5:18, Rom 8:19-23, 1Cor 15:22-26,35-36,50-53, Rev 21:1 All made holy... Jn 12:32, Rom 5:18-19, 2Cor 5:14-19 All will be reconciled with God and evolve into a greater relationship with Him... Jer 32:17; Lk 1:34-37, Mk 10:17-30, Acts 3:19-21 Rev 5:13, 21:3-7,24-27, 22:1-3,14-15,17 God is giving an imeasurable supply of His Spirit... Jn 3:34 Spirits are saved from death: 1Cor 5:5 God will eventually give faith in Him to all flesh that exists in the universe... Isa 45:22-23, Ps 145:10,21, 150:6, Lk 3:4-6, Is 40:3-5, Lk 16:16, Rom 11:22-27,32, 1Cor 5:2-5, 1Tim 4:10, Eph 1:9-10 John the Baptist said of Jesus (Jn 1:29) 'See, the lamb of God Who is taking away the sin of the world!'. So God must be giving faith to all in the world through His Son, God's Sacrificial Lamb Who removes the sin from the world. Acts 17:30 says "overlooking the times of ignorance, God is now charging mankind that, all - everywhere, are to repent, forasmuch as He assigns a day in which He is about to be judging the inhabited earth in just togetherness by the Man Whom He specifies, tendering faith to all, raising Him from among the dead". Isaiah 9:6-7 reads '...A Boy is born to us; a Son is given to us, and the government shall come to be on His shoulder, and His name is called Marvelous, Counsellor of God -the Masterful Father of the Future, Prince of Peace. To the increase of the government and peace there shall be no end...'. All earthly Israelis will be eventually saved: Lk 2:10-11, Ro 11:25-26 |
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Mike Burke
Feb 25th, 2008 - 6:50 PM |
Re: Verses supporting Universal Reconciliation
I think you meant Acts 17:30-31, but I don't see "just togetherness" or "tendering faith to all." What translation are you using? Is there some textual variant I'm unaware of? |
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