Biblical Universalist Discussion Forum
Welcome to my forum. Feel free to post a message.
|
||
| Return to Website | ||
 First |
 Prev |
 Reply |
 Forum |
Next  |
Last  |
| Viewing Page 1 of 1 (Total Posts: 8) |
| Author | Comment |
|
Zach
Aug 16, 07 - 7:13 PM |
Salvation from sin or salvation from Hell?
It seems that a lot of universalists believe that salvation is not about being delivered from the punishment for sin, but rather being delivered from sin itself. I'm just wondering how you would defend that. I don't object to the idea, but are there any Scriptural grounds for taking it? I'm thinking mostly of Scriptures like Romans 5:9 ("saved from wrath") and Luke 3:7 ("flee from the wrath to come"). Not that there can't be elements of both (see, for instance, Matt. 1:21), but it seems to me that the position that we aren't saved from God's wrath is off-base. |
Mike Burke
 Aug 16th, 2007 - 8:03 PM |
Re: Salvation from sin or salvation from Hell?
[Quote] It seems that a lot of universalists believe that salvation is not about being delivered from the punishment for sin, but rather being delivered from sin itself. I'm just wondering how you would defend that. I don't object to the idea, but are there any Scriptural grounds for taking it? [unquote] Matthew 1:21 is a good place to start: and she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins. (Young's Literal Translation.) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (Romans 5:10.) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses (Col. 2:13.) ...she who lives in pleasure and self-gratification [giving herself up to luxury and self-indulgence] is dead even while she [still] lives. (1 Tim. 5:6, Amplified Bible.) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. (Romans 6:18.) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (Romans 8:22.) Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son (Col. 1:13.) [Quote] Not that there can't be elements of both [unquote] Of course there are elements of both. [Quote] but it seems to me that the position that we aren't saved from God's wrath is off-base. [unquote] I don't believe anyone has said that. What they've said is that the Gospel isn't about fire insurance, and being saved from sin is more important than being saved from hell (and a heaven of sin would be hell for God and man.) |
|
pam
Aug 16th, 2007 - 9:36 PM |
Re: Salvation from sin or salvation from Hell?
There would be no one entering the Kingdom of Heaven if there were no remedy for sin. No one would escape wrath. |
|
Mike Burke
Aug 16th, 2007 - 11:53 PM |
Re: Salvation from sin or salvation from Hell?
[Quote] There would be no one entering the Kingdom of Heaven if there were no remedy for sin. No one would escape wrath. [unquote] AMEN! |
|
Ed Smith
Aug 17th, 2007 - 10:05 AM |
Re: Salvation from sin or salvation from Hell?
I don't think this is any distinctly universalist perspective at all. I've long been aware of Matthew 1:21 mentioned above, but there is much more in scripture making the same indication. As you are reading through the New Testament, try noticing how often salvation through the work of Christ on the cross is spoken of in terms of actually freeing us from some kind of bondage as slaves to sin. Even when you see the word forgiveness associated with this act, if you look at the Greek, you often find that the word means "setting free" as if from slavery or prison. Consider, also, the traditional idea of eternal torment as payment for sin. That is an infinite payment for finite sin, unless the person continues in bondage to sin for all eternity. When I believed in eternal torment, this was the only way I could make sense of the idea. So you see, even from that perspective, delivering us from sin itself is the real issue. Sin has consequences and one of them is wrath. To say we are being saved from the consequences of sin rather than sin itself is a very twisted way of looking at things. It would be as if a doctor found a cancerous tumor in you which could be removed and he only gave you painkillers or cut all the nerves to those tissues instead of removing it. I certainly do believe God's problem with us is getting the sin out of our selves. I will propose a hypothetical situation which I have used here previously: Suppose God had no way of paying some penalty that we deserved for sin, but He could find a way to cure us all from the presence of sin so that He could enjoy us in happiness and holiness forever. Would He condemn us all to eternal torment or destruction because of some idea of justice? Is that really possible to believe when He wants us to have an entirely different attitude when others sin against us? Perhaps saving us from the actual presence of sin is God's only real problem with us. It is certainly a much more tricky problem than paying a penalty for sins, which He could do with or without our consent. I'll close this with Romans 6:22. "But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life." Notice that the outcome of being freed from sin is eternal life. Freedom from sin is what we need. If we get it, sanctification and eternal life are automatic. Best regards, Ed |
|
pam
Aug 17th, 2007 - 1:34 PM |
Re: Salvation from sin or salvation from Hell?
Eternal torment is something only human beings with our inate, perverted sense of justice could dream up. The true justice that comes only from God is beyond any of our imaginings. When I think of the Judgement Seat, I hear Jesus say, "He who is without sin, caste the first stone." I think we will all be awestruck on that day when the justice of God pours down! |
|
Maribel
Sep 2nd, 2007 - 8:43 PM |
Re: Salvation from sin or salvation from Hell?
I think hell is more of a condition we put ourselves in rather than a place. We reap what we sow(Galatians 6:7-9). |
|
Mike Burke
Sep 3rd, 2007 - 10:27 AM |
Re: Salvation from sin or salvation from Hell?
I don't believe hell is entirely a state of mind, but I do agree with what Tom Talbott wrote on the subject: We are free to sin and perhaps even to sin with relative impunity for awhile, but in no way are we free to sin with impunity forever. So unless we first repent of our sin and step into the life that Christ brings to us, God will sooner or later--in the next life, if not in this one--permit our illusions to shatter against the hard rock of reality. In that respect, God's holy love is like a consuming fire (see Hebrews 12:29); it will continue to burn us until it finally purges us of all that is false within us. The more we freely rebel against it and try to defeat it, the more deeply and inexorably it will burn, until every conceivable motive for disobedience is consumed and we are finally transformed from the inside out. And so God will eventually destroy sin in the only way possible short of annihilation: by redeeming the sinners themselves. http://www.willamette.edu/~ttalbott/freewill.html |
| First |
Prev |
Reply |
Forum |
Next |
Last |
powered by
bravenet.com