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Pam
Aug 5, 07 - 4:59 AM |
Fellowship
Universal Restoration in Christ is something that I long strained toward in my study of scripture and was only able to conclude the matter a little over a year ago. I thought I'd discovered penecilian! Then I was also so surprise to find that there are others with views of scripture very simular to mine. I am hungry to discuss this view with folks who won't pummel me for it! I also wonder if you fellowship with other Chrisitan Univrsalists and how do you find them in your own community? 
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pawz
Aug 5th, 2007 - 3:44 PM |
Re: Fellowship
Pam, there are quite a few forums around which are dedicated to the UR view, and where there is a friendly ambience to the chat, even when folks don't see quite the same thing. For folks like me, such places are very helpful, even if you choose to lurk rather than join in. 'Folks like me' equals them as haven't got any UR fellowship with other like-minded folk in the 'real' world'.Here in England such believers are few and far between. 
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Mike Burke
 Aug 5th, 2007 - 9:08 PM |
Re: Fellowship
[Quote] I am hungry to discuss this view with folks who won't pummel me for it! I also wonder if you fellowship with other Christian Univrsalists and how do you find them in your own community? [unquote] I attend the United Methodist Church (where universalism is accepted as a minority view), but most of my fellowship with other Christian universalists is via email. If you live here in the Delaware Valley, I recently received an email from a brother who's interested in starting a home study group (and wherever you live, I hope this forum is of some help to you.) G-d Bless. |
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Pam
Aug 7th, 2007 - 12:31 PM |
Re: Fellowship
Thanks for the response. I guess ideally, fellowship should be around Christ and not theological viewpoint but that generally works until one states their viewpoint! It is strange that holding a more inclusive view can make one more isolated but that seems to be the reality of it. Of course, Jesus was very isolated from the religious community. So, what do we do with this penecillian????;-} I am not so bothered by it as I know God is completely Sovereign and in reality, everyone is right where He wants them to be but when I see and hear people suffer over loved ones they believe to be in eternal torment in hell, or those who've lost all hope for a child who just won't turn to God, then I want so badly to set them free for their unnecessary misery. From a biblical viewpoint however, universal restoration is not a simple view given in a few simple statements and for me, this seems to be the problem. I am judged before I have the time to show someone the whys of the whats of my beliefs. It is frustrating...and often, lonely...but truly, I know that revelation of Jesus is a work of the Holy Spirit and only Jesus can show anyone the truth of Himself or of His work. I guess we need to rely upon Him for patience but I'm glad to have found this place and I know there will be different views here too but I'm hoping for the openness required to share true unity in Christ while learning about the different views of the whats and whys of our faith in Him. That is the hope that I've come here with.:0) Pam |
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Mike Burke
Aug 7th, 2007 - 11:37 PM |
Re: Fellowship
[Quote] Thanks for the response. I guess ideally, fellowship should be around Christ and not theological viewpoint [unquote] That would seem implied in the following passage: For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Cor. 3:11-15.) [Quote] but that generally works until one states their viewpoint! It is strange that holding a more inclusive view can make one more isolated but that seems to be the reality of it. [unquote] Not necessarily. Have you ever visited the following Methodist, Lutheran, and Orthodox web sites? http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=16&mid=9077 http://essentiallylutheran.blogspot.com/ http://www.theandros.com/restoration.html http://en.hilarion.orthodoxia.org/6_6_10 [Quote] So, what do we do with this penecillian???? [unquote] Let it enrich your personal faith, and share it with those who ask you for your opinion (and who are asking themselves the same kind of questions you asked when you "strained toward" this understanding.) I would point out here, that it can be harmful to force our answers on those who haven't even started asking the same questions we have. ...we speak wisdom among those who are mature... (2 Cor. 2:6.) [Quote] I am not so bothered by it as I know God is completely Sovereign and in reality, everyone is right where He wants them to be but when I see and hear people suffer over loved ones they believe to be in eternal torment in hell, or those who've lost all hope for a child who just won't turn to God, then I want so badly to set them free from their unnecessary misery. [unquote] If you really believe everyone is right where God wants them to be, then these people (in all their misery) must be right where God wants them to be. If you want to set them free from their "unnecessary" misery, perhaps you don't really believe they're "right where God wants them to be," and you intuitively know that some of us have oversimplified what we say regarding God's sovereignty. Have you ever read the following article? http://www.willamette.edu/~ttalbott/freewill.html Anne Bronte (though she believed in universal salvation) once expressed the opinion that scripture wasn't as clear as it could be, because God knew how prone we'd all be to abuse the truth, and that all too many of us would use it as an excuse to delay repentance, and to continue in sin. Some of the Church Fathers (while believing in universal salvation) expressed the same opinion, and there's even more reason to be concerned about the dangers of over simplifying God's sovereignty. I may be an adulterer, a thief, or a pedophile, but I'm right where God wants me to be, and I'll change when He wants me to. I'm sure that's not what you meant to imply, but some of us are far too careless in the things we say regarding God's sovereignty (mostly because we've picked up a pattern of unsound words from those who claim to understand such things.) G-d Bless. |
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pam
Aug 8th, 2007 - 7:18 AM |
Re: Fellowship
Scripture gives us God's viewpoint on life but I still have my viewpoint too and there is constant tension between them. Even Jesus knew why the Father had appointed Him to die yet, He struggled against it. I like the Son of Man, want God's Will but my flesh desires that it come in some painless way or that Jesus Christ be revealed to all now. Just like Jesus, the Holy Spirit wins out and I accept that which God has appointed to me and to everyone. Yes, we are all right where God wants us to be, deeply embroiled in the struggle that is life, subject to time and death. Our sanity is in the eternal perspective He allows us to glimpse and also be our guide. There is a lot there for me to read and no I've not been to those websites. I am from a Bible background and the Protestant tradition is a bit foreign to me. They are sprinklers and I'm a dunker.:0) I will have a look see... Pam |
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Mike Burke
Aug 8th, 2007 - 12:10 PM |
Re: Fellowship
[Quote]Yes, we are all right where God wants us to be[unquote] I'm afraid I must disagree with you Pam. As Ptof. Tom Talbott (a fellow universalist) wrote: I believe in free will. I believe that our freedom plays an essential role in the process whereby God, first, brings us into existence as rational and self-aware beings, and second, perfects us as his sons and daughters. But as a universalist, I also accept two additional Pauline claims: (1) that the very same "all" who died in Adam will most assuredly be made alive in Christ (I Corinthians 15:22), and (2) that our destiny "depends not on human will or exertion, but upon God who shows mercy" (Romans 9:16). So how do I put these seemingly disparate ideas together? Fortunately, Paul himself teaches us exactly how to put them together consistently. For though Paul clearly rejects the idea that we choose freely between different possible eternal destinies, arguing instead that our destiny is wholly a matter of grace, he nonetheless stresses the importance of choice. "Note then," he writes in his letter to the Romans, "the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness toward you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise, you also will be cut off." So how we encounter God's love in the future, whether we encounter it as kindness or as severity, is indeed, says Paul, up to us--a matter of free choice, if you will. But our ultimate destiny is not up to us, because God's severity, no less than his kindness, is itself a means of his saving grace... http://www.willamette.edu/~ttalbott/freewill.html The whole article is well worth reading, but the point is that even God cannot create perfection in an instant. Another Universalist (and I thank Pastor Rick Farwell, of the Pauline Church of Christ for this quote) wrote the following: Adam and Eve were doubtless created perfect specimens of the human race so far as they were flesh. But God did not create them perfect specimens morally or spiritually. Such perfection cannot be attained through an act of creation. Look at the fruit on trees, or plants. They have to grow to reach maturity. So have we. As a human being, even the Lord had to be "perfected" or matured through sufferings (Heb. 2:10). We could not have obtained eonian salvation unless He had thus been perfected (Heb. 5:9)." from Chap. 11 of 'Who Is Our God?' by A. Thomson. http://z6.invisionfree.com/The_Differentiator/index.php?showtopic=31 So, no. All of us are not right where God wants us to be. [Quote] There is a lot there for me to read and no I've not been to those websites. I am from a Bible background and the Protestant tradition is a bit foreign to me. They are sprinklers and I'm a dunker.:0) I will have a look see...[unquote] Though the New Testament does mention the baptism of households (Acts 16:15; 1 Cor. 1:16), most of those entering the Christian Church in the first century were adult converts from Judaism and Paganism. The Methodists, the Lutherans, and the Orthodox still "dunk" such converts. As to sprinkling, I know some ultra-dispensationalists who believe that water baptism is a Jewish rite, inherited by "the circumcision Church" from John the Baptist, and never part of Paul's Gospel. They believe that John's baptism was part of a prophesied Jewish revival (at a time when their kingdom, which is now postponed, was near), and I've always found it strange that the only Old Testament allusion to this baptism that they can find speaks of sprinkling: For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. (Ezek. 36:24-25.) The Greek word "baptizo" speaks of cleansing with water, and is used of the washing of tables (or couches) in Mark 7:4. for the Pharisees, and all the Jews, if they do not wash the hands to the wrist, do not eat, holding the tradition of the elders, and, [coming] from the market-place, if they do not baptize themselves, they do not eat; and many other things there are that they received to hold, baptisms of cups, and pots, and brazen vessels, and couches. (Mark 7:3-4,Young's Literal Translation.) The dunking of something as large as a table or couch seems unlikely to me, but the normal mode of adult Christian baptism seems to have been immersion (still practiced by all denominations when they receive unbaptized adult converts, so far as I'm aware.) As to children, Paul wrote: But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. (1 Cor. 7:12-14.) And Jesus said: Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 19:14.) Some communions welcome children by a ceremony of blessing that proceeds adult believer's baptism by many years, others sprinkle them with water (and solemnly covenant before God to raise them in the Christian faith) shortly after they're born, but in either case the water is a symbol of spiritual cleansing. G-d Bless. |
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pam
Aug 8th, 2007 - 12:12 PM |
Re: Fellowship
It is hard when we first meet to know if we disagree or not, so I say, let's give it time. In the end, it is not so important that we agree but that we each seek agreement with the mind of Christ that is in us. I have written many articles expounding that which God has shown and is showing me. They can be found at gracehead.com. Gracehead is experiencing growing pains at the moment so also be patient with some of what you may read there. Yes, we do make our choices but thankfullly, ours is not the directive choice. I know right practice in regards to such things as baptism is important but I'm afraid that I have long ago left behind any controversy regarding such and leave it to the Lord to judge the heart in such matters.----This is a serous crowd :0) I was being somewhat, tongue and cheek. Though, I have so long been a student of the Bible and so long fiercely held to 'Christ alone' that I'm not sure I could feel comfortable in a Protestant Church even if they were more accepting of my eschetology. Truly, I am at a point in my life and my walk with Christ that the institutional church seems far and not so important. However, I do very much enjoy gathering with others around Jesus Christ. Pam |
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Mike Burke
Aug 8th, 2007 - 12:14 PM |
Re: Fellowship
[Quote] It is hard when we first meet to know if we disagree or not, so I say, let's give it time. In the end, it is not so important that we agree but that we each seek agreement with the mind of Christ that is in us. [unquote] Amen. |
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