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Mike Burke
 May 9, 07 - 1:50 AM |
On The Personality of The Holy Spirit
From the BGreek Forum: ...A very clear intimation of the personality of the Holy Spirit is in 1 Cor 12:11: "all these works the one and the same Spirit, dividing to each one severally even as he will." You cannot say this of an influence, because it is said he works and he is willing... Look also at: Acts 8:29 And the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot." Acts 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." ... 4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia... Acts 16:6 And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia. 7 And when they had come opposite Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them; Acts 20:23 except that the Holy Spirit testifies to me in every city that imprisonment and afflictions await me. Acts 20:28 Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers ... IMHO its a very poor thought to deny that the Holy Spirit is seen as a person (that is: something acting with own will and energy) in this scripture references. I dont deny that it MIGHT be possible to interpret this scriptures in another way. But in Germany we call such an exegesis "gezwungen" (forced). Its not probable. http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/test-archives/html4/1997-12/22018.html |
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Mike Burke
May 12th, 2007 - 5:30 PM |
Re: On The Personality of The Holy Spirit
P.S. Let's take a closer look at some of the passages cited above: And the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot" (Acts 8:29.) If this passage doesn't imply the personality of The Spirit, the writer chose to personify an indirect reference to God Himself. Why not simply say "And God said to Philip"? While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them" (Acts 13:2.) Again, an indirect reference to God Himself is personified, when it would have been just as accurate (and far more natural) to say "While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, He said, 'Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them" And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia. (Acts 16:6.) Again, an indirect reference to God Himself is personified, when it would have been just as accurate to say "having been forbidden by God." I could go on, but is it not strange that a distinction should be made between God Himself (whom we're told "IS SPIRIT," and of whom it's said "no man has ever seen, or can see") and some invisible mode of communication? If only the Father is God absolute, and He Himself is invisible, why is this invisible force repeatedly spoken of as distinct from Him (and why is it then personified)? Is not such an interpretation (at the very least) forced and improbable? Can any Modelist, or Arian really answer these questions? |
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marlon
May 13th, 2007 - 3:48 PM |
Re: On The Personality of The Holy Spirit
My views on these matters are not fixed. But I will update you on this. I believe the Son is eternal (or perhaps more accurately eternally generated), as the passage in Hebrews on Melchizedek indicates. As for the personification of the Spirit in these passages, often times in scripture the heart, the will, the right arm etc are seemingly given separate identities from the bearer. Plus both the Spirit and the Father are called the 'father' of our Lord. |
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Mike Burke
May 13th, 2007 - 5:16 PM |
Re: On The Personality of The Holy Spirit
[Quote] My views on these matters are not fixed. But I will update you on this. I believe the Son is eternal (or perhaps more accurately eternally generated), as the passage in Hebrews on Melchizedek indicates. [unquote] Glad to hear that Marlon. [Quote] As for the personification of the Spirit in these passages, often times in scripture the heart, the will, the right arm etc are seemingly given separate identities from the bearer. [unquote] When "right arm" is used as a figure of speech, it usually refers to a person (i.e. a Prophet, Priest, King, General.) If you believe The Holy Spirit is impersonal, "heart" might be a better example. It's true that the heart is sometimes personified, but where is one's "heart" (or "will" for that matter) said to speak to anyone but the individual himself? Did David's heart ever forbid anyone but David to do anything? Is it ever represented as speaking to anyone but David? Let's see what happens if we substitute the word "heart" for "Spirit" in some of the passages our friend from the BGreek forum cited. While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the (Lord's) Holy heart said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them. (Acts 13:2.) And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy heart to speak the word in Asia. And when they had come opposite Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the heart of Jesus did not allow them (Acts 16:6-7.) Does this not seem a very strange, unnecessary, and unnatural way of speaking? Is this not a forced interpretation? [Quote] Plus both the Spirit and the Father are called the 'father' of our Lord. [unquote] Where in Holy Scripture is the Spirit said to be "the Father of our Lord"? It's said that he was conceived (in His humanity) through the instrumentality of the Holy Spirit, but it doesn't say that the Holy Spirit is His Father. |
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DJ
May 16th, 2007 - 5:37 PM |
Re: On The Personality of The Holy Spirit
Hi, I've never posted here but for some reason I've stumbled upon this forum and read this at the top of the list. To me, the trinity doctrine has never made sense to me. There are just too many questions. To me, the holy spirit is the spirit of God, not some separate entity. It is the ways and means, if you will, by which God operates. Man also has a spirit, and if I say "I am with you in spirit", it is not some other entity that is with you, but me. My spirit is not something separate or an addition to me. Without it I would cease to exist. God is spirit. You say: It's said that he was conceived (in His humanity) through the instrumentality of the Holy Spirit, but it doesn't say that the Holy Spirit is His Father. Exactly. That is why Jesus is not called the son of the holy spirit. He is the son of God the Father, conceived His spirit. Jesus Christ has a God and that is God the Father, who is greater than Jesus. Jesus came out from the Father. He is, was, and always will be subject to the Father. Why did Jesus say: John 16:7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. If the holy spirit really is a separate entity, why would Jesus have to depart before (it - in the greek this article could be "it") could come? John 16:13 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. Who is the spirit of truth? Christ said "I am the truth". John 16:14-15 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. Who or what is this comforter, this 'parakletos'? God's Word tells us. John is the only writer who uses this word 'parakletos.' So where else does he use it? I John 2:1: "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate [Greek: PARAKLETOS!!!] with the Father, JESUS CHRIST the Righteous" (I John 2:1)!!! I don't see that Jesus is part of a trinity, but under the headship of His Father: Ephesians 1:17 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory If the holy spirit is a separate "God" entity, why is there no scripture where the holy spirit is actually called "God"?? 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth--as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"-- 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. Why is the holy spirit not mentioned in this profound scripture, if "he" really is part of a triune godhead with "his" own personality? Why does Paul consistently use in his salutations: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Why does he not include the holy spirit in this phrase if he is really such an all important equal entity to this triune godhead... These things, and more pose serious questions that, to date have not been satisfactory answered by those who believe in a trinity. It just does not seem scriptural to me. Hope this doesn't offend...but rather inspire those reading to seek out the word for truth on the matter. Peace and God bless, DJ |
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Mike Burke
May 16th, 2007 - 10:48 PM |
Re: On The Personality of The Holy Spirit
[Quote] To me, the trinity doctrine has never made sense to me. [Unquote] That doesn't make it untrue. [Quote] There are just too many questions. [unquote] IMO, there are more questions involved in the alternative views. For Arians: If nothing that was made was made without the the pre-incarnate Christ (John 1:3), did He help make Himself? What about time? Was time made? If not, how could the Father be alone for an infinity of time, and then suddenly need a son? If it was made, how could it have been made before the pre-incarnate Christ (without whom nothing was made, John 1:3)? For Modelists: Why did Jesus say "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began" (John 17:5)? And why does Paul say "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power" (1 Cor. 15:24)? This would seem to imply some personal distinction between the Father and the Son (both before His birth, and after His resurrection.) [Quote] It's said that he was conceived (in His humanity) through the instrumentality of the Holy Spirit, but it doesn't say that the Holy Spirit is His Father. Exactly. That is why Jesus is not called the son of the holy spirit. He is the son of God the Father, conceived His spirit. [unquote] That is your interpretation, but it is not a necessary interpretation. The Trinitarian view is that all three persons of the Trinity are fully God, and all three would have been involved in the virgin birth--just as all three were involved in the resurrection. Consider these passages: ...I lay down my life - only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again... (John 10:17-18.) Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. (Acts 2:24.) ...being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit (1 Peter 3:18.) The first passage says that Jesus took His life back, the second passage says that God raised Him up, and the third says that He was quickened through the Holy Spirit. ...she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. (Matt. 1:18.) ...Jesus: who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men (Phil. 2:5-7.) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14.) The first passage says that He was conceived through the Holy Spirit, the second says that He emptied Himself, and the third says that He came from the Father. [Quote] Why did Jesus say: John 16:7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. If the holy spirit really is a separate entity, why would Jesus have to depart before (it - in the greek this article could be "it") could come? [unquote] Perhaps for the same reason that the tabernacle had to be sprinkled with blood before it could be filled with the Shekinah. Have you forgotten that He was talking to sinful men, who could only be reconciled to God by the death of His Son? [Quote] To me, the holy spirit is the spirit of God, not some separate entity. [unquote] But it's spoken of as a separate entity--a separate entity that wills, speaks, calls, testifies, forbids, and can be grieved. [Quote] To me, the trinity doctrine has never made sense to me. [unquote] Once again, something is not made untrue simply because you fail to understand it. |
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DJ
May 17th, 2007 - 9:19 AM |
Re: On The Personality of The Holy Spirit
Hi Mike, Thanks for taking time to reply. You make some good points. I will continue to study this topic out with bible in hand and seek God for truth. Peace, DJ |
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Mike Burke
May 17th, 2007 - 9:41 AM |
Re: On The Personality of The Holy Spirit
[Quote] Hi Mike, You make some good points. [unquote] Hello, and thank you. [Quote] I will continue to study this topic out with bible in hand and seek God for truth. Peace [unquote] Peace to you (and God Bless.) |
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Darroll Evans
May 17th, 2007 - 12:36 PM |
Re: On The Personality of The Holy Spirit
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (KJV) I don’t believe that any Christian would disagree with Scripture. God calls, appoints, and anoints all true Christian servants, i.e. “servants to the Church of Jesus Christ.” Now, let’s look at a special verse that adds light to the Trinity controversy that seems to be blossoming. Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. (KJV) You will notice that the call in this case does not come from the Father or the Son. Instead, it comes from the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost). If we consider the source of that call, the Holy Spirit must, of necessity, be part of the Godhead, hence part of the Trinitarian Godhead. FYI: The Concordant Literal Version agrees with the KJV translation. Darroll |
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Mike Burke
May 17th, 2007 - 2:29 PM |
Re: On The Personality of The Holy Spirit
[Quote] Now, let’s look at a special verse that adds light to the Trinity controversy that seems to be blossoming. Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. (KJV) You will notice that the call in this case does not come from the Father or the Son. Instead, it comes from the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost). If we consider the source of that call, the Holy Spirit must, of necessity, be part of the Godhead, hence part of the Trinitarian Godhead. FYI: The Concordant Literal Version agrees with the KJV translation. [unquote] A very good point. Thank you Daroll. IMO, the following passages clearly attribute personal qualities to the Holy Spirit: ...all these doth work the one and the same Spirit, dividing to each severally as he intendeth. (1 Cor. 12:11, Young's Literal Translation.) `For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, no more burden to lay upon you, except these necessary things: to abstain from things offered to idols, and blood, and a strangled thing, and whoredom; from which keeping yourselves, ye shall do well; be strong!' (Acts 15:28-29.) And the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot" (Acts 8:29.) While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them" (Acts 13:2.) And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia. (Acts 16:6.) ...the Holy Spirit testifies to me in every city that imprisonment and afflictions await me. (Acts 20:23.) Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers... (Acts 20:28.) And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. (Eph. 4:30.) We may not be able to entirely understand the relationships within the Godhead, but as St. Athanasius said: Insofar as we understand the special relationship of the Son to the Father, we also understand that the Spirit has this same relationship to the Son. (to Serapion of Thmius.) Any God that wholly conformed to man's limited reason could not be the infinite God of the Bible. |
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Darroll Evans
Dec 13th, 2007 - 4:39 PM |
Re: On The Personality of The Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is perhaps the most misunderstood member of the Trinity. We must first know that the Trinity is ONE. Trinitarians do not, as Muslims accuse us of doing, worship 3 gods. We worship One God made up of three distinct persons/personalities acting in total and complete unison. However, those persons are spiritually inseparable! As our Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus may be the best known of the three, but the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives is essential to our spiritual well being. It is the Holy Spirit who actually works within us to bring us to Christ, and to lead us in the righteous ways that are acceptable to the Father. As a Charismatic, I tell you, that many non-Charismatics understand the Personality of the Holy Spirit with greater clarity than do so-called Pentecostals or Charismatics. Michael has set out several verses telling of the Holy Spirit’s work among us. He is the seal by which we are sealed for the work of Christ. The Holy Spirit cherishes us with the same love that the Father and Son love us. |
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Maribel
Dec 16th, 2007 - 9:14 PM |
Re: On The Personality of The Holy Spirit
What about II Cor. 12:9-10, 13;4, and 1 Corinthians 1:25? We should be careful of how we interpret it, because God's mind is different from ours(Isaiah 55:8-9). Remember what he did on the time of Noah and Sodom and Gommorah. He sure ain't a Mr. Nicey Nicey. The cross is to show all of us humans how bad sin is and how it affects us. |
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Mike Burke
Dec 17th, 2007 - 8:42 AM |
Re: On The Personality of The Holy Spirit
[Quote] What about II Cor. 12:9-10 [unquote.] and He said to me, `Sufficient for thee is My grace, for My power in infirmity is perfected;' most gladly, therefore, will I rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of the Christ may rest on me: wherefore I am well pleased in infirmities, in damages, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses -- for Christ; for whenever I am infirm, then I am powerful (2 Cor. 12:9-10.) Sometimes, that's God's answer. [Quote] 13:4 [unquote.] for even if he was crucified from infirmity, yet he doth live from the power of God; for we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him from the power of God toward you. (2 Cor. 13:4.) Amen [Quote] and 1 Corinthians 1:25 [unquote.] because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men (1 Cor. 1:25.) Amen again (but what does any of this have to do with the topic heading here?) |
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