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Robert
Mar 26, 07 - 7:52 PM |
Symbols of Destruction
The annihilationist make much of the symbols that are in the bible regarding punishment. According to Edward Fundge: "Jesus compared the end of the wicked to someone burning chaff, dead trees or weeds, and also said it will be like a house destroyed by a hurricane or someone crushed under falling rock. Matthew 3:12; Matthew 7:19; Matthew 13:30, 40; Matthew 7:27; Luke 20:17-18. He also says: "Jesus personally described Gehenna (hell) as a place where God can destroy both soul and body -- the entire person." See http://www.edwardfudge.com/hellquiz.html |
Mike Burke
 Mar 27th, 2007 - 1:03 AM |
Re: Symbols of Destruction
I think they make too much of that symbolism. The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up. (1 Sam. 2:6.) Even literal destruction isn’t necessarily permanent. Consider the following passages: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Romans 6:6.) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Gal. 2:20.) In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor. 5:4-5.) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Cor. 3:11-15.) Sin and evil (and the sinner all of us are without new life in Christ) must be completly and permanently destroyed, but consider these passages: ...having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. (Col. 1:20.) ...we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (1 Tim. 4:10.) ...God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil. 2:9-11.) God Bless. |
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Robert
Mar 27th, 2007 - 7:42 AM |
Re: Symbols of Destruction
Mike, Thanks for the reply. So are you saying that the UR proponent interprets it to mean that it is sin that is destroyed in these symbols and not the sinner? |
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Ed
Mar 27th, 2007 - 8:00 AM |
Re: Symbols of Destruction
I'd like to focus a bit on one of the scriptures Mike mentioned: For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Cor. 3:11-15.) Immediately preceding this (verse 9) it is said "you are...God's building." And also that (verse 10) each man must be careful how he builds that building. There is a core, a foundation to us all which cannot be changed, but it takes time to build a whole person. As creatures who begin life with an individual will, we ourselves can determine much of what is built upon that foundation; we participate in our own creation. When the Bible speaks of people being destroyed, it speaks accurately. Nearly all of what some think of as themselves must be destroyed. When a building has been very poorly built, the only cure is to raze it to its foundation and rebuild. The second time, the will that is still there but broken, will not interfere with the design of the master builder. |
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Mike Burke
Mar 27th, 2007 - 9:04 AM |
Re: Symbols of Destruction
Thanks Ed. There's also: "Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him" (2 Sam 14:14). |
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Robert
Mar 27th, 2007 - 9:44 AM |
Re: Symbols of Destruction
Hi Ed- Isn't the 1 Cor verse about believers? |
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Mike Burke
Mar 27th, 2007 - 2:39 PM |
Re: Symbols of Destruction
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (Col. 1:16-17.) Christ is God, and I concur with the following Universalist statement of faith: We do not forget that there is one sense in which God is not the father of all. There are many who have not been spiritually born of him, or regenerated, and who are not, in this moral or religious sense, his children, that is, they do not resemble God in their character. Christ said to the Jews, for instance, ''If God were your father, ye would love me." " Ye are of your father the devil, and the works of your father ye will do." And so in several other passages of Scripture, God is spoken of as the father only of those who believe and obey. But in all these cases the meaning is too obvious to need illustration. We know they relate only to religious character, not to the persons themselves. What we wish to say is, that, underneath this moral or religious relationship of mere character, there must be a natural relationship that binds all mankind to God. If he were not really their Father, how could he require them to serve him as dear children? If they really belonged to the "adversary," it would be enough for them to obey their own father. But if God created them all in his own image, he is of course their father in the natural sense. "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/inchruniv.html#prin2 |
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Ed
Mar 27th, 2007 - 2:43 PM |
Re: Symbols of Destruction
>Hi Ed- >Isn't the 1 Cor verse about believers? It is often taken that way since Paul is talking to believers. However, Paul is always talking to believers and may want to make broader statements at times. His repeated use of phrases such as "no man," "any man," and "every man" in this context could make the case that he intends to speak more broadly at this time. "No man can lay a foundation other than that which has been laid, which is Jesus Christ." Is it as broad a statement as it sounds? It may be hard to be certain from the immediate context, but we do know that Christ is the foundation for all creation as is stated in a favorite universalist passage Col. 1:15-20--"in Him all things hold together." No matter how broadly you view the passage in question, one can still take the passages about destruction in the way I described. The only question is whether the Corinthians passage is speaking of that kind of destruction for all or only for some. The destruction I described is a *possible* interpretation of the destruction passages you originally raised. You have to ask yourself, based on other scripture and the character of the God you know, whether it is the correct interpretation. This may be why God left some scriptural interpretations less clear than we'd like. He wants us to come to know and trust Him enough to form conclusions based on that heart knowledge and trust. Ed |
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Andrew
Mar 27th, 2007 - 5:26 PM |
Re: Symbols of Destruction
Ed said: "No matter how broadly you view the passage in question, one can still take the passages about destruction in the way I described. The only question is whether the Corinthians passage is speaking of that kind of destruction for all or only for some. The destruction I described is a *possible* interpretation of the destruction passages you originally raised. You have to ask yourself, based on other scripture and the character of the God you know, whether it is the correct interpretation. This may be why God left some scriptural interpretations less clear than we'd like. He wants us to come to know and trust Him enough to form conclusions based on that heart knowledge and trust." Excellent point. Something I don't think we consider often enough. |
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