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orio
Dec 5, 06 - 11:51 PM |
the beast of revelation 13
what is the true identity of the beast? |
Mike Burke
 Dec 6th, 2006 - 11:18 AM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
Here's a partial quote from an interesting web site: It is apparent that the world ruler, who is the center of world events during the time period known as Daniel's 70th week, needs to be in place before he can make the covenant with Israel. And although his full political and military might is not demonstrated until the middle of the week, the structure from which he operates must already be in existence and he must have some political control in order to "swing" the deal in the first place...The final world kingdom (the beast-kingdom) is built upon 7 other historical world kingdoms. Rev. 17:10, and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come and when he comes he must remain a little while These are kingdoms which all have their foundation in the "Babylonian evil" of Nimrod's kingdom...Of these kingdoms, 5 have fallen prior to the then present kingdom of Rome; one is, which is Rome (from John's perspective); and one is yet to come, subsequent to Rome. There is usually no disagreement in identifying the 6 kings or kingdoms. The problems arise with trying to identify the 7th. But I think that we can find within the context of Revelation 17 as well as the context of Daniel, the fact that the 7th is simply a ten-nation confederacy formed into a political and economic power which will have great, although subtle, influence throughout the whole world. This 10-nation "organization" will be in existence at "the time of the end" and become the instrument by which one man out from among them will establish world control. It is usually identified as a revived or a reconstructed Roman Empire that will exist at the end times and prior to the world ruler taking control...The 7th kingdom, which is the beast kingdom, is described as possessing 10 horns which are identified as 10 kings which have not yet received a kingdom, but will receive authority with the beast for one hour (a short time). This 10-king body, or 10-nation body refers to a political and economic organization, with roots in the Roman Empire, which will come together in the last days. We learn details of this from Daniel 2:40-44; 7:19-24; and Rev. 17:8-17. http://www.biblefragrances.com/studies/revrom.html I would add that while the E.U. has about 25 members now, only ten of these nations belong to the W.E.U., and it's intersting that: French and German leaders have considered various proposals for developing the WEU as the military arm of the EU. http://www.unc.edu/depts/europe/conferences/eu/Cfsp/cfsp3.html God Bless. |
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Mike Burke
Dec 6th, 2006 - 11:53 AM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
The second beast of Rev. 13 appears to be a religious leader, and I would also like to add this: Europe has a growing Moslem population, Asia Minor (Turkey) was part of the Roman Empire, and the following article about Pope Benedict the 16th's visit to Turkey was very interesting: ISTANBUL (Reuters) - Pope Benedict wound up a fence-mending visit to Turkey on Friday amid praise from the local press for visiting Istanbul's Blue Mosque and praying toward Mecca "like Muslims". The Pope, who sparked protests across the Muslim world with a speech two months ago seen as criticizing Islam, looked relaxed and pleased as he entered the Cathedral of the Holy Spirit for a mass at the end of the sensitive four-day trip. His first visit to a mostly Muslim country, held under tight security for fear of protests by nationalists and Islamists, was highlighted by a series of conciliatory gestures culminating in a stop on Thursday afternoon in Istanbul's famed Blue Mosque. "The Pope's dreaded visit was concluded with a wonderful surprise," wrote daily Aksam on its front page. "In Sultan Ahmet Mosque, he turned toward Mecca and prayed like Muslims," popular daily Hurriyet said, using the building's official name. His gestures, including support for Ankara's bid to join the European Union and praise for Islam as a peaceful faith, seem to have persuaded the Turks to move beyond the tension following his speech quoting a Byzantine emperor as calling Islam violent. ...Catholic officials also presented the mosque visit, where Benedict stood in silent prayer while Istanbul Grand Mufti Mustafa Cagrici prayed aloud, as a key moment of reconciliation. "I would compare the Pope's visit to the mosque to Pope John Paul's gestures at the Western Wall," said veteran Vatican mediator Cardinal Roger Etchegaray, referring to Pope John Paul II's prayers at Jerusalem's Western Wall in 2000.... http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type= topNews&storyID=2006-12-01T120223Z_01_L28626797_RTRU KOC_0_US-POPE-TURKEY.xml&pageNumber=0&imageid=∩=&sz= 13&WTModLoc=NewsArt-C1-ArticlePage2 In today's ecumenical climate of tolerance and compromise, I doubt anyone would really notice if the next Pope is more Moslem than Christian. God Bless. |
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Ed Smith
Dec 6th, 2006 - 1:00 PM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
For an alternative theory to the usual revived Rome/European Union idea, take a look at: http://answering-islam.org/Authors/JR/Future/ch10_the_revived_islamic_empire.htm The six empires were empires that had ruled over the middle east, including Jerusalem. There has been one such empire since then, that is, the Turkish/Ottoman Caliphate. The eighth is to be one of the seven, not necessarily the seventh. Ed |
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Mike Burke
Dec 7th, 2006 - 8:51 AM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
Hi Ed, How would this theory fit in with Daniel 9:26? After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. (N.I.V.) Is it not evident that a Roman (Titus) fulfilled the first part of this prophecy in 70 A.D.? Some prefer to translate the relevant portion of the verse "The city and the sanctuary will be destroyed with the coming of the prince (or governor)," but I believe the following facts weigh heavily against this translation: 1.) The context of this prophecy indicates that the city and the sanctuary are not destroyed "with" the other governor's coming--in fact, he doesn't interfere with the Temple ritual until the middle of the following week (three and a half years into his reign.) 2.) Since Paul said that the man of sin would sit in the Temple and demand to be worshiped, and we all know that it was destroyed by Titus over nineteen centuries ago, it will have to be rebuilt sometime before the antiChrist demands worship (and many of the church fathers believed it would be he who enabled the Jews to rebuild it.) Under such circumstances, it would seem more appropriate to say that the sanctuary is rebuilt "with" his coming. 3.) The unaccented text could be translated either way, but the Masoretic vowel points (which probibly have some basis in earlier oral tradition) support the reading found in the majority of English translations. 4.) The K.J.V., N.I.V., R.S.V., and The Jewish Publication Society all translate it "people of." |
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Ed Smith
Dec 7th, 2006 - 9:03 AM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
"Some prefer to translate the relevant portion of the verse "The city and the sanctuary will be destroyed with the coming of the prince (or governor),"" I don't prefer that translation and had nothing goofy like that in mind. Is "the prince who is to come" the same as the "one who makes a firm covenant for one week?" I admit it looks that way, but it might look to the first readers like all this would happen around the same time too. It is hard to be entirely sure about such a thing. Also, what does it mean to be the "people of the prince who is to come?" Perhaps Rome at the time of Christ would be considered the people of the Antichrist, even if that person is not descended directly from Romans. Ominously, Turkey, as well as much of the middle eastern Muslim world, was part of the Roman empire anyway. I'm leaning toward some blending of European and Islamic power. In any event, it seems that if this is all to play out any time in the near future, the Muslims will have to consider the Antichrist to be their Mahdi. Who else would they possibly follow in such a way? Those who don't follow the Lamb will follow the Beast. Take a look at this map of the Roman Empire: http://intranet.dalton.org/groups/Rome/RMap.html What would be a true revival of this? Ed |
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Mike Burke
Dec 7th, 2006 - 9:32 AM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
[Quote] I'm leaning toward some blending of European and Islamic power. [unquote] I think that makes some sense. [Quote] In any event, it seems that if this is all to play out any time in the near future, the Muslims will have to consider the Antichrist to be their Mahdi [unquote] Perhaps, which is why I find it interesting that the queen of England (who I believe is technically still the head of the English Church) recently added a Moslem prayer room (facing Mecca) to her royal residence, and the Pope apparently added his "amen" to the prayers offered by a Moslem cleric (while bowing toward Mecca in Turkey's Blue Mosque.) How far is the ecumenical movement (with it's interfaith dialogue) capable of going? [Quote] Take a look at this map of the Roman Empire: http://intranet.dalton.org/groups/Rome/RMap.html What would be a true revival of this? [unquote] I looked at it, and it would seem that a true revival would have to include "Christian" nations like Spain and Italy, and Moslem nations like Turkey. Interesting. Thank you Ed (and God Bless.) |
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Ed Smith
Dec 7th, 2006 - 9:52 AM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
What is interesting is that it includes so much of Europe and also (we usually don't think of this part) so many Muslim lands. You got at least parts of Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, and all the North African nations. In fact, it's about half Muslim lands. Ed |
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Mike Burke
Dec 11th, 2006 - 12:08 AM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
[Quote] Is "the prince who is to come" the same as the "one who makes a firm covenant for one week?" [unquote] I think "he" would have to refer to someone who has already been introduced, and "the prince who is to come" is the last subject introduced in the previous verse. [Quote] Also, what does it mean to be the "people of the prince who is to come?" Perhaps Rome at the time of Christ would be considered the people of the Antichrist, even if that person is not descended directly from Romans. [unquote] Not sure what you're getting at here. The Romans were carnal, and the antiChrist and his followers will certainly be carnal, but I think "people of" means more than that (though it would be interesting to know the ethinic composition of the legions under Titus.) [quote] What is interesting is that it includes so much of Europe and also (we usually don't think of this part) so many Muslim lands. You got at least parts of Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, and all the North African nations. In fact, it's about half Muslim lands. [unquote] That is interesting, but it’s also true that most of those lands belonged to the British Empire not too long ago (and I believe the French had Syria, Lebanon, Algeria, and Morocco.) In the early 20th century, would it not have been true to say that over half of British subjects were either Muslim, Budhist, or Hindoo? The second beast of Rev. 13 (which is inwardly a dragon, though it appears to be a lamb) is said to have two horns, and I just found this on another website: The two horns on this lamb can represent two distinct religious systems unified by the false prophet. There is strong evidence to suggest this united religious system will be the adulterous church, pictured in three of the seven churches (Laodicea, Sardis, Thyatira), unified with the remnants of Islam by the False Prophet...Catholicism already accepts Muslims and Jews as having salvation, without having to believe Jesus died on the Cross, or that he is the Son of God. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." ... Taken from: Catechism of the Catholic Church, Liguori Publications, 1994 http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?gpp=5264&pst=280826 While I believe that those who die in the Muslim faith (like all other unbelievers) will eventually be saved--I do not believe they are saved now. Neither do I believe that any can be saved without Jesus Christ, who "gave Himself as a ransom for all, to be testified in due season" (1Tim. 2:6.) Muslim's don't believe this, and to simply gloss over the difference between our two faiths (as if we belonged to the same family now) is a dangerous delusion. In fact, much of what passes for "ecumenical," "tolerant," and "politically correct" reminds me of Paul's words to the Thessalonians: for the secret of the lawlessness doth already work, only he who is keeping down now [will hinder] -- till he may be out of the way, and then shall be revealed the Lawless One...whose presence is according to the working of the Adversary, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved, and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie, that they may be judged -- all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness. (2 Thes. 2:7-12, Y.L.T.) |
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Mike Burke
Dec 11th, 2006 - 12:09 AM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
P.S. I said it would be interesting to know the ethinic composition of the legions under Titus, and I found the following information: Auxiliaries had been sent by two petty kingdoms on the Upper Euphrates, Commagene and Emesa; an Arabian sheik, who felt a deep hatred for the Jews, had joined the Romans with his warriors; and from Italy arrived many adventurers - veterans from the defeated armies of Galba and Otho. The besieged did not stand a chance against this army. http://www.livius.org/ja-jn/jewish_wars/jwar04.html Maybe a revival of the Ottoman Empire would fit in with Daniel 9:26 after all. Perhaps there will be a revival of both the Eastern and Western Empires (and in that case the beast could be a Greek, a Turk, an Arab, or a European.) Thank you Ed. |
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Maribel
Jun 20th, 2007 - 5:01 PM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
Hi, everyone. Years ago, when I was like five or six, I got ran over by a car. I suffered a traumatic brain injury and short-term memory loss. I was brought up Catholic believing in natural immortality of the soul and endless hell which haunted me for a while last year, then I believed in annihilation which I was feeling a little better about, but it still made me heartbroken. The real hell is this earth where there's evil and suffering, not some dante infierno system where lost souls get locked up for eternity. Everybody suffers, including God himself. Do you honestly think God would let people suffer more after all we all been or goin through? If you have kids, they start causing trouble, then later suffer the consequences, would you wanna make them suffer more? Of course not.The beast is something within us, not an individual popping out on the scene ruling for a few years ago, givin false peace. Jesus often spoke figuratively, he said there will be more than one false prophet(Matthew 24:4,11,24, Mark 13:6, 22, Luke 21:8) even John and Paul said so(1 John 2:18-22, 2 Timothy 3:1-5). We should also believe that this reality is a momentary dream(Psalm 90:9, Matthew 8:22; Ephesians 2:1-3, Ecclesiastes 1:13, 12:7, Mark 13:33,36, Eph.5:14, Isaiah 29:8) but many people don't realize that yet. we were all born in this illusionary world to learn what it's like to be in darkness. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, he made the world an illusion((Genesis 3:17-19) so we too have to suffer, even die because of it. That's why Jesus came here to die for us is to get us into the real reality which is divine. Heaven is the new universe which all evil is eradicted. That;s why Jesus said "Be reformed"(Mark 1:15) so we can live in it, where everybody is finally a real family and friends, a physical family is only a mirror image of a true family which is spiritual, no wonder why the disciples abandon them. When we awake to the new world which we all long for, our parents, even siblings, the family we were born to in this world will be different, it's because they were only your family in the dream. No wander in Revelation chapter 21 verse 4 and 5 says that all will be made new, I like that part. It will also be a multidimensional time, which will be cool, we could be young again if we wanted. |
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Mike Burke
Jun 20th, 2007 - 9:38 PM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
[Quote] The real hell is this earth where there's evil and suffering, not some dante infierno system where lost souls get locked up for eternity. [unquote] If you visited my web site, you know that I don't believe in eternal torment--but Jesus did warn of judgment for sin (both here and hereafter): If, therefore, thou mayest bring thy gift to the altar, and there mayest remember that thy brother hath anything against thee, leave there thy gift before the altar, and go -- first be reconciled to thy brother, and then having come bring thy gift. `Be agreeing with thy opponent quickly, while thou art in the way with him, that the opponent may not deliver thee to the judge, and the judge may deliver thee to the officer, and to prison thou mayest be cast, verily I say to thee, thou mayest not come forth thence till that thou mayest pay the last farthing. (Matt. 5:23-26, Young's Literal Translation.) ...if ye may not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. (Matt. 6:15, Young's Literal Translation.) ...then having called him, his lord saith to him, Evil servant! all that debt I did forgive thee, seeing thou didst call upon me, did it not behove also thee to have dealt kindly with thy fellow-servant, as I also dealt kindly with thee? `And having been wroth, his lord delivered him to the inquisitors, till he might pay all that was owing to him; so also my heavenly Father will do to you, if ye may not forgive each one his brother from your hearts their trespasses.' (Matt. 18:32-35.) There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. (Luke 13:28.) [quote] Do you honestly think God would let people suffer more after all we all been or goin through? [unquote] In the first centuries of the Christian era, Christians had to give their lives for their faith. They were fed to wild beasts, crucified, beheaded, and burned alive. I believe there's a Christian brother under a death sentence in Pakistan right now. In 66-70 A.D., hundreds of Jews were crucified. Those who were trapped in the city of Jerusalem died of famine and disease, and some resorted to cannibalism. Some did the same during the siege of Stalingrad. About 60 years ago, European Jews were being loaded into cattle cars, and shipped to concentration camps, where those who could work were used for slave labor, until they became too sick or weak to work. Children and the elderly were considered "useless mouths to feed," and gassed immediately (or used for medical experiments.) The hair of the victims was used to stuff pillows, and their skins were used to make lampshades. The Japanese were committing similar atrocities in the far east. When they took the city of Nanking, Japanese troops raped the women, killed the men, and used infants for bayonet practice. In the Philippines, 60,000 prisoners of war died in what became known as "the Bataan death march." Eventually, the tide of war turned, and Germany and Japan suffered--The Dresden firestorm, the siege of Berlin, the Nuremberg trials, poverty, hunger and humiliation for Germany; Hiroshima, and Nagasaki for Japan. This is the suffering that man is capable of inflicting, and of bringing on himself as a consequence of his actions. God allowed this in the past, why should he not allow it in the future? Is the world so much better now than it was than? Are today's Christians better than those who had to die for their faith in the past? As my late friend Jim Ober once said "One needs to ask why God allows any bad thing to happen to any person. This life is a blink of the eye in comparison to eternity, and man wanted to know the difference between good and evil. We learn that difference by experience." He also wrote: Men who think a God of Love won't allow terrible things to happen to those called by His name are deeply deluded. He has judged those "in his house" in the past...One should consider that the transitions of ages happen with most of the people called by God's name in deep apostasy. Consider Rev. 3: 14 To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold .nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm-- neither hot nor cold-- I am about to .spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes .to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. God can and does judge His own people brutally. He has done it before--and if we are in the transition from one age to the next, there is every reason to believe He will do it again. http://www.biblicaluniversalist.com/IsraelAndChurch.html |
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Mike Burke
Jun 20th, 2007 - 10:29 PM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
P.S. Dear Maribel, However black the night (and even if it must be darkest before the dawn), we can find hope and encouragement in these words: For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning. (Psalm 30:5.) Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him (2 Sam 14:14) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:8-11.) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor. 15:22-28.) The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. (Psalm 145:9.) As believers, we can find a special strength and encouragement in these words: For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (1 Tim. 4:10.) |
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Maribel
Jun 20th, 2007 - 11:59 PM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
I'm also a slow learner due to my accident. I'm like sometimes, why did God put me through this, do I do something wrong or was it my family? I'm now 21, and can sometimes act immaturely. God does have a sense of humour, because he created a platypus, a semiaquatic, egg-laying, fur covered, webbed footed, duck-billed mammal, a penguin, chamaleon with weird lookin eyes, persian cat with flat face, porcupine, bulldog, and other types of animals, he also made the four livin creatures with eyes all around them(Revelation 4:8) he also created gas inside our bodies so we could burp or pass gas and mistakes we make. I like humour. Does God value animals as much as humans? I want to show you a video of newborn tiger cubs, they're so cute, I want one , but it belongs in a wild habitat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7yAh_SBaOI How does God react to that? Do angels take care of animals too? |
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Mike Burke
Jun 21st, 2007 - 6:24 AM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
[Quote] Do angels take care of animals too? [unquote] When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD standing in the road with a drawn sword in his hand, she turned off the road into a field. Balaam beat her to get her back on the road. Then the angel of the LORD stood in a narrow path between two vineyards, with walls on both sides. When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, she pressed close to the wall, crushing Balaam's foot against it. So he beat her again. Then the angel of the LORD moved on ahead and stood in a narrow place where there was no room to turn, either to the right or to the left. When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, she lay down under Balaam, and he was angry and beat her with his staff. Then the LORD opened the donkey's mouth, and she said to Balaam, "What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?" Balaam answered the donkey, "You have made a fool of me! If I had a sword in my hand, I would kill you right now." The donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?" "No," he said. Then the LORD opened Balaam's eyes, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the road with his sword drawn. So he bowed low and fell facedown. The angel of the LORD asked him, "Why have you beaten your donkey these three times? I have come here to oppose you because your path is a reckless one before me. The donkey saw me and turned away from me these three times. If she had not turned away, I would certainly have killed you by now, but I would have spared her." (Numbers 22:23-33.) A righteous man regards the life of his animal, But the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel. (Prov. 12:10.) Are not two sparrows sold for an assar? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father (Matt. 10 29.) For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. (Romans 8:20-22.) G-d Bless. |
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Maribel
Jun 22nd, 2007 - 7:25 PM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
Is the flesh of Satan(James 1:13-15, 21, Romans 8:3-4, 7, John 3:6, Mark 7:20-23, 2 Peter 1:4, Galatians 5:16-24, Romans 7:15-24) because we all know that he rules the physical world(Ephesians 2:1-3, Colossians 3:1-5, Ephesians 5:18, Galatians 6:8, 1 John 5:4, 1 John 4:4, Romans 13:14, 1 Thessalonians 5:22, Romans 7:18) while God and Jesus rule the spiritual and flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of the heavens(John 6:63, I Cor. 15:50). |
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Mike Burke
Jun 22nd, 2007 - 9:12 PM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
[Quote] Is the flesh of Satan [unquote] No. Flesh is the tissue that covers the bones of man and beast, consisting of the same elements as the soil. God made the soil, and He made man of these elements. And HaShem God formeth the man -- dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature. (Genesis 2:7.) And HaShem God causeth a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he sleepeth, and He taketh one of his ribs, and closeth up flesh in its stead. (Genesis 2:21.) These verses are filling in the details of what we were already told in the first chapter: And God prepareth the man in His image; in the image of God He prepared him, a male and a female He prepared them. And God blesseth them, and God saith to them, `Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over fish of the sea, and over fowl of the heavens, and over every living thing that is creeping upon the earth.' (verses 27-28.) This is followed by: And God seeth all that He hath done, and lo, very good; and there is an evening, and there is a morning -- day the sixth. (Genesis 1:31, Young's Literal Translation.) [Quote] because we all know that he rules the physical world (Ephesians 2:1-3, Colossians 3:1-5, Ephesians 5:18, Galatians 6:8, 1 John 5:4, 1 John 4:4, Romans 13:14, 1 Thessalonians 5:22, Romans 7:18) [unquote] But man was first given the opportunity to rule over this creation. If Satan now has dominion, it's because our first parents lost it to him by proving themselves unworthy. The second Adam (Our Lord Jesus Christ) won it back when He came in the flesh: ...every spirit that doth not confess Jesus Christ in the flesh having come, of God it is not; and this is that of the antichrist, which ye heard that it doth come, and now in the world it is already. (1 John 4:3, Young's Literal Translation.) To say that Satan created the material world, or that flesh is inherently evil, is one of the oldest Gnostic heresies. God Bless. |
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Maribel
Jun 22nd, 2007 - 9:40 PM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
What does Jude chapter 1 verse 9 mean that Michael dare not to throw slanderous accusations against Satan? I thought we can say something bad about him because of what he does. Does God love him too? |
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Mike Burke
Jun 23rd, 2007 - 7:54 AM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
[Quote] What does Jude chapter 1 verse 9 mean that Michael dare not to throw slanderous accusations against Satan? {unquote] Peter said, Angels do not, in order to avenge themselves, rail at dignities, though ungodly, when they have to contend with them: Jude says that the archangel Michael himself did not rail even at the time when he fought with the devil, the prince of evil spirits--not from fear of him, but from reverence of God, whose delegated power in this world Satan once had, and even in some degree still has. (Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown.) [unquote] Does God love him too? [unquote] On the one hand: God is love (1 John 4:8,16.) And: Good [is] HaShem to all, And His mercies [are] over all His works. (Psalm 145:9.) On the other hand: Righteous [is] HaShem in all His ways... (Psalm 145:17.) The kindness of a righteous God may involve correction, and there is such a thing as tough love. Our God is a consuming fire (Heb. 12:29), and all that is evil will have to be consumed. G-d Bless. |
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Darroll Evans
Jun 23rd, 2007 - 7:56 AM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
Rev 13:1-3 1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. Some look at this “beast” as a flesh and blood beast. Others see it as forms of government. Dan 7:2-7 2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. 3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. 4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. 5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. 6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. 7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. Satan is a spirit. He is an evil spirit, but nonetheless, a spirit. 1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (KJV) 1 Cor 15:50 speaks of carnality inheriting spirituality. The carnal mind is enmity toward God (Romans 8:7), and will not be justified before God. The earthly kingdoms of “this world” will also not be justified before God. However, we do not humanly initiate or make the changes. The changes are in the hands of God. The kingdoms (governments) of this world shall become the kingdoms of our God (Rev 11:15)! While we recognize human governments, we do not place ‘saving” faith in them. That “faith” belongs to Christ and Him alone. |
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Mike Burke
Jun 23rd, 2007 - 10:56 AM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
[Quote] 1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (KJV) [unquote] True, but after His resurrection, Jesus (at least when He wanted to) had a body of flesh and bones: Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Luke 24:29, KJV.) He also eat after His resurrection: And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them. (Luke 24:40-43.) And He spoke of eating the Passover with them after His second coming: And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. (Luke 22:15-16.) [Quote] 1 Cor 15:50 speaks of carnality inheriting spirituality. The carnal mind is enmity toward God (Romans 8:7), and will not be justified before God. [unquote] True, but our flesh was corrupted when our parents partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil--the carnal mind is a product of their sin: ...by one man's offence death reigned by one (Romans 5:17.) ...in Adam all die (1 Cor. 15:22.) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. (Psalm 51:5, KJV.) Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me. (Young's Literal Translation.) [Quote] While we recognize human governments, we do not place ‘saving” faith in them. That “faith” belongs to Christ and Him alone. [unquote] Amen. |
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Maribel
Jul 16th, 2007 - 9:58 PM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
Jesus also said on Matthew chapter 25 that if we bless his brethren, the elect, he will also bless us and enter the kingdom, but if we curse, persecute them, we will also be cursed, the same thing Abraham said on Genesis 12:3 + 27:29. It's simple. |
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Mike Burke
Jul 16th, 2007 - 11:43 PM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
[Quote] Jesus also said on Matthew chapter 25 that if we bless his brethren, the elect, he will also bless us and enter the kingdom, but if we curse, persecute them, we will also be cursed, the same thing Abraham said on Genesis 12:3 + 27:29. It's simple. [unquote] I think you mean the same thing that God said of Abraham in Gen. 12:3 (and Jacob said to Isaac in Gen. 27:29.) G-d Bless. |
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Darroll Evans
Jul 25th, 2007 - 4:23 AM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
Maribel, I am not at all sure of how the Beast and your statement Matthew 25 connect. In Matthew 25, the closest I could come to your statement is: Matt 25:45-46 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. That parable does not relate to actively persecuting other Christians, but instead relates to helping those in need. I suppose you could call it persecution and the result may be the similar. But, in the act of persecution, the persecutor initiates an act against the persecuted. This would relate more to a sin of omission than to a sin of commission. Thank you for your email. We in America do not experience overt persecution. Many in other countries do. How can we resolve the issue of helping less fortunate Christians? We resolve it through a teaching ministry that is both spiritual and practical. We help the less fortunate while teaching them to care for themselves. In the opening chapters of Acts, the Christians in Acts held all things in common. As a result of the Apostles not understanding the timing of the Plan of God, they spent all they had without renewing their supplies. In essence, they ate their physical seed. And as a result, other Churches had to sustain the Jerusalem Church congregation. We could say that physical poverty is the beast, but that would cause many other problems. As Michael said, your statement is closer in content to Genesis 12:3 than to Matthew 25. However, that is not related to the beast. |
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pam
Aug 9th, 2007 - 5:40 PM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
Mike, This is in response to the article you posted about the Pope praying as a Muslim: I have often thought that there could be no darker time upon the earth than in those days when the Catholics and Muslims ruled the earth. The only days darker that I can imagine is if they should join forces. Javier Solana is a interesting man to read about. I'm not saying he is the anti-christ but he is something. I have always reguarded beasts as representing governments Biblically and I believe that the last global government will be a combination of relgious and poltical force that will be so intense as to completely bring both human institutions to an end. Pam |
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Mike Burke
Aug 15th, 2007 - 12:21 AM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
[Quote] I have often thought that there could be no darker time upon the earth than in those days when the Catholics and Muslims ruled the earth. The only days darker that I can imagine is if they should join forces...I have always reguarded beasts as representing governments Biblically and I believe that the last global government will be a combination of relgious and poltical force that will be so intense as to completely bring both human institutions to an end. [unquote] Pray to Allah, Dutch bishop suggests Amsterdam, Aug. 14, 2007 (CWNews.com) - A Dutch Catholic bishop has suggested that Christians should refer to God as "Allah" to promote better relations with Muslims. Bishop Martinus "Tiny" Muskens of Breda told the "Network" television show that "God doesn't really care how we address Him." Pointing out that "Allah" is a term already used by Christians who speak Arabic, Bishop Muskens said that humans are needlessly divided over such terminology. God, the bishop said, is above such "bickering." The Dutch bishop admitted that his suggestion was not likely to gain widespread acceptance. But he predicted that within a century or two, Dutch Catholics would be addressing prayers to "Allah." Bishop Muskens has a history of creating occasional controversy within the Church. He has broken with Vatican leadership to endorse the use of condoms as a means of preventing the spread of AIDS, and in 2006 he traveled to Uganda to endorse the work of a group called Stop AIDS Now, which emphasized condom distribution. http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=52928 |
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pam
Aug 15th, 2007 - 7:33 AM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
Mike, The two religions want the same thing, dominant control with political power. Maybe they've been enemies so long that they've decided instead to combine forces to reach their desired goal. This should be shocking but it's not.... |
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Mike Burke
Aug 15th, 2007 - 8:15 AM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
It's interesting that Elhanan Winchester (a pre-mil universalist), viewed the Ottoman Empire as a revival of the eastern half of the Roman Empire. Though premature, this view (common in his day) may have contained some foreshadowing of truth, as the people of the eastern empire (all predominately Moslem now) were well represented among the troops that destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D.: Auxiliaries had been sent by two petty kingdoms on the Upper Euphrates, Commagene and Emesa; an Arabian sheik, who felt a deep hatred for the Jews, had joined the Romans with his warriors; and from Italy arrived many adventurers - veterans from the defeated armies of Galba and Otho. The besieged did not stand a chance against this army. http://www.livius.org/ja-jn/jewish_wars/jwar04.html The western empire was also represented, so "the people of the prince who will come" (Dan. 9:26) could point to a Turk, an ethnic Arab, or any European. G-d Bless. |
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pam
Aug 15th, 2007 - 10:41 AM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
We can read the signs and seasons but none of can know the time, not even Jesus. People who have stopped everything they were doing and went to sit on a hill and wait for emminent rapture have been a part of the faith since near the beginning. I don't think any of them failed in reading the signs, as I believe, they have always been present in ever intesifying degrees, but they did fail in thinking they could assertain the time that is known only to God. This same miscalculation is rife today. |
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Mike Burke
Aug 15th, 2007 - 12:45 PM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
[Quote] This same miscalculation is rife today. [unquote] Maybe, maybe not. If the time is known only to God, it's impossible to say whether it's near or far (and saying it's far off implies you've ascertained the time, no less than saying it's near does.) [Quote] none of can know the time, not even Jesus. [unquote] Scripture nowhere says that He doesn't know the time, it says that He (in His humanity) didn't know the day and hour 2000 years ago. He said that neither men or angels knew the day and hour at the time, but scripture nowhere says that we would never be able to ascertain the time (and sooner or later, those who say the time is near will be right.) |
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Mike Burke
Aug 15th, 2007 - 5:50 PM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
P.S. Have you heard of the European Neighbourhood Policy? [The European Neighbourhood Policy and Daniel 9:27] The European Neighbourhood Policy (ENP) is an accord, initiated by the European Union (EU), involving many nations. It has been funded and implemented for a seven-year period (2007-2013). Indications and assurances of the pursuit of peace, between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, and in the Middle East as a whole, are included in the agreement. Here are two examples: For Israel and the Palestinian authority, the Neighbourhood Policy is a concrete sign of the EU’s engagement. ... Israel has never been willing to make such commitments in writing to any other partner (Brussels, 9 December 2004). The EU-Israel ENP Action Plan opened up new possibilities for developing EU-Israel relations by setting out a wide range of areas for greater cooperation including: promoting peace in the Middle East... (The European Neighbourhood Policy Fiches on Partners). Officially, the ENP went into effect on 1 January 2007. Technically, though, the European Neighbourhood Policy was finalized in October 2006... Nations Included in the ENP Here are the non-European nations included in the European Neighbourhood Policy, at least initially: * Algeria * Armenia * Azerbaijan * Belarus * Egypt * Georgia * Israel * Jordan * Lebanon * Libya * Moldova * Morocco * Palestinian Authority of the West Bank and Gaza Strip * Russian Federation * Syria * Tunisia * Ukraine Israel was the first non-European nation to sign on. In 1995, the Euro-Mediterranean Partnership (EuroMed) was initiated. It was an agreement between the EU and a number of Mediterranean nations, including Israel (represented by Ehud Barak) and the Palestinian Authority (represented by Yassir Arafat)...The European Neighbourhood Policy may be considered to be a confirmation or strengthening of the EuroMed Partnership... In the Bible, “666” is associated with the “mark of the beast” in Revelation 13:16-18. This commonly is assumed to be a reference to the Antichrist. Many believe it is significant that Article 666 and Recommendation 666 are included in the ENP. They deal with the person who is in a primary position of leadership and power: * the Secretary-General both of the European Union (EU) and of the of the Western European Union (WEU), as well as * the High Representative for the Common Foreign and Security Policy (CFSP). http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/Endtimes/ENP.html Javier Solana is Secretary General of the EU, and negotiated both EuroMed and the ENP, but I believe it's too soon to say more than that (and only time will tell if he's the anti-Christ, and if we have in fact entered Daniel's 70th week.) G-d Bless. |
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pam
Aug 16th, 2007 - 1:07 PM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
Hi Mike, I'm going to answer the first post first and then go to the second. I can only hold so many things in my head at one time.:0) Matthew 24:32 "No one knows the day or the hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Then Matthew 24:44 "So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him." We who are in Christ are to walk by faith and not sight. I don't think God wants us to be ready on a certain date because we've found some way to discern the time of Christ's return but instead trust Jesus to keep us prepared for Him to come when we don't expect it. I believe that the 'last days' began upon Christ's ascenion and that He could have returned for His church any time after that or any time into the future up to the Millenial Rule. It is the miraculous event that doesn't really fit into a strictly detailed dispensational chart. Instead, it is a hope that believers have always had to look forward to when things down here under Satan's rule get really hard to bear. I believe that is the reason that we are not given to know the exact time. However, I also believe we are in an era where many prophetic events are taking place. We just have to keep reminding the fearful that Armegedon is not the end of the world but instead, a horrible war in which God, in His Mercy, will intervene. And that intervention will put an end to the prince of this world's influence and also end man's failed attempts at self-rule. It's going to get bad but then really, really good! |
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Mike Burke
Aug 16th, 2007 - 1:11 PM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
[Quote] However, I also believe we are in an era where many prophetic events are taking place. We just have to keep reminding the fearful that Armegedon is not the end of the world but instead, a horrible war in which God, in His Mercy, will intervene. And that intervention will put an end to the prince of this world's influence and also end man's failed attempts at self-rule. It's going to get bad but then really, really good! [unquote] AMEN! |
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pam
Aug 16th, 2007 - 1:28 PM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
Hi again Mike, I've read quite a bit about 'little Javier' but not that agreement. I've slacked off a bit lately. I do know however, that there are so many things about the him and the emerging EU (which he is the architec of)that they seem to be written according to dispensational prophecy. I know that he is also a New Age thinker and has also received the Cross of Isabella, which is the cross of the Inquisition. He also despises any form of fundamental religion. In his youth, he was a Marksist (sp?sorry I'm foggy today) but married General Franco's neice. Because of this he has been nicknamed the 'Rounder of Squares'. There is an empty seat for him upon ratification of the EU Constitution with a new title "The One Voice". This seat is numbered 666. An interesting Biblical tidbit I recently came across: There is a 666 man in the Bible, in the first chapter of Ezra verse 13. His name was Adonikam and the reason he is the 666 man is because he had 666 living decendents after the time of the Babylonian captivity ended. The 'number of a man' in Hebrew thought is simply the number of a patriarch's living decendents. There is so much speculation about this number and I don't know how this new (for me anyway) information fits into that exactly but it takes the superstious edge away from it and gives it a much more realistic context. I'd be interested in your thoughts. My personal impression is that Javier is the false prophet preparing the way for the Beast (a global religious governmental system) and the antichrist who will rule over it. I don't think Javier fits the bill for antichrist because I can't see the Jews accepting him as Messiah. Also Javier is not physically very impressive and I think the antichrist is going to be very attractive, strong, young, and charismatic. He will be everything that the world loves and will follow after. He will not be a man of sorrows given to suffering as Jesus was when He walked the earth. The antichrist will be physical perfection with false spiritual power. Sounds pretty 'New Agey' to me! |
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Mike Burke
Aug 16th, 2007 - 2:38 PM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
[Quote] I don't think Javier fits the bill for antichrist because I can't see the Jews accepting him as Messiah. [unquote] I don't know if he is the anti-Christ, but I don't see why he couldn't fit the bill. As for Jews accepting him as "the Messiah," I know of no place in scripture where it says that Jews who are faithful to their ancestral religion will accept the anti-Christ as the Messiah promised in their scriptures. Jesus did say "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive" (John 5:43), but there were many times in their history when Jews accepted Baal, Ashtorah, Molech, Dagon, etc. In the first and second books of Chronicles and Kings, the Jews again and again reject their ancestral religion. The Maccabean war was between Jews who wanted to remain faithful to the Law of Moses, and those who wanted to accept the gods of Olympus. Karl Marx was a Jew, and there were many Jews who accepted his philosophy. The Marranos of Spain are ethnic Jews who converted to Catholicism during the Spanish Inquisition. [Quote] Also Javier is not physically very impressive and I think the antichrist is going to be very attractive, strong, young, and charismatic. [unquote] Hitler was charismatic, but he wasn't physically impressive. He wasn't attractive, strong, or young--and (like Napoleon before him) he was short. [Quote] The antichrist will be physical perfection [unquote] You mean like Israel's first king? You may be right, but (once again) I know of no scripture that requires this. [Quote] ...with false spiritual power. Sounds pretty 'New Agey' to me! [unquote] Me too. A lot of Jews (as well as Christians) are being seduced by the New Age Movement--and the New Age Movement itself is heavily influenced by the Jewish Kabbalah. G-d Bless. |
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Mike Burke
Aug 16th, 2007 - 2:49 PM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
P.S. Would you be more inclined to see the Jews accepting Javier Solana as their Messiah if he claims Marrano descent? He is Spanish, and he could make that claim tomorrow. |
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pam
Aug 16th, 2007 - 3:31 PM |
Re: the beast of revelation 13
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