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Mike Burke
 Jul 3, 05 - 9:30 PM |
Messianic Movement
There are now Jewish synagogues that accept Jesus (sometimes called Yeshua) as the promised Messiah. These are called "Messianic" synagogues, and they're part of the "Messianic movement." Most of them observe circumcission, and keep the 7th day Sabbath, the feast days, and the Kosher laws (but not all of them seek to impose these things on Gentile believers.) What should our attitude be toward this movement? |
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Andrew E. Cortes
Jul 8th, 2005 - 12:20 PM |
Re: Messianic Movement
As Jesus has commanded us we are to love our neighbor. That would include anyone who still keeps the "law". We, who walk after the Spirit, however don't keep the "law" as they still do now, as that would be in disobedience to Jesus who is the High Priest of the New Covenant. The Old has been done away with and we now live according to the New Covenant whose teachings are "spiritual" and not physical as the Old was. The spiritual teachings deal with the heart of man where sin really starts and then is manifested in our bodies. Nothing could be farther from the truth than to go back to the "law" when after we have had our "eyes" enlightened to the truth. Andrew |
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Mike Burke
Jul 8th, 2005 - 3:45 PM |
Re: Messianic Movement
Of course we should love them, but that isn't really the question. They have not been accepted by Jews as Jews, and they are often not accepted by Christians as Christians. There is also Romans 11:18-23 to consider: Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For over 1900 years, the wild branches have boasted against the natural branches. Is it possible that the Messianic movement is the begining of what Paul warned of here? God bless. |
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Andrew E. Cortes
Jul 11th, 2005 - 11:21 AM |
Re: Messianic Movement
Michael, There is no more a "physical Israel" that is God's people anymore. Now, God's "seed" are those who have the same "faith of Abraham", according to the promise. The true "Israel" is now all those who have trusted in Jesus, irrespective of whether or not they were previously "circumsised" or not. It is now, the "circumcision" of the heart, that is important to God. The tiny country called, Israel. with a little more than 6 million inhabitants is not the "Israel" the bible refers to. That is purely a deception from the false teachings of false teachers in the Protestant churches today, and has been for centuries now. In fact, this "Israel" still teaches (the "law" and a corruption of the original, mind you) what it forefathers taught, and they were the ones who "slew" our Master, almost 2000 years ago. If you will do some research you will find that the Jews who now live in the state of Israel are the same descendants of those who were once the Levites and high priests during the pre-fall of Israel in Daniels day, that had apostasized. The Israelites from the Northern Kingdom after it fell were the ones who went north then west all the way to the "wilderness" which is now the USA. The Jews from the Southern Kingdom went east and then were allowed to return during Nehimiah's day but then they went back to their old ways of corruption and were the same Jews living in Israel when Jesus was born. That which is of the flesh is flesh. That which is of the Spirit is spirit. Andrew |
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Mike Burke
Jul 12th, 2005 - 6:13 AM |
Re: Messianic Movement
"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance" (Romans 11:28-29.) Paul is talking about the Jews from the Southern Kingdom, who were living in Israel when Christ was born. God is not thru with them as a people (Read Romans 11:17-32.) I've seen historical evidence that the Northern Kingdom migrated to the steps of Russia, Afghanistan, Western India, and has been sifted among all nations (and twelve thousand will be sealed from each tribe in the days ahead), but the House of Israel is not the Gentile Church. We're the wild olive branches Paul is talking about (and we're told not to boast against the natural branches.) |
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Al Jenke
Apr 11th, 2007 - 7:31 AM |
Re: Messianic Movement
I believe that Paul addresses this EXACT situation (which was obviously a BIG problem as early as his time) in his "Letter to the Galatians". It was written to address this EXACT situation, and the ingress of "law keeping" into the "pure Gospel of Jesus Christ". His answer was neither very kind (by today's indolent standards) nor very ecumenical !! 
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Mike Burke
Apr 11th, 2007 - 8:43 AM |
Re: Messianic Movement
Hi Al, Not sure what "EXACT situation" you're talking about here. The Galatian Judaizers wanted to impose the Mosaic Law on Gentile believers, did they not? Did Paul accuse James, and the Elders of the Jerusalem Church of Judaizing when they asked him (as a Jew) to participate in Temple Worship? Did he have any problem paying for the sacrifices that those under the Nazarite vow were to offer in the Temple? When asked to publicly demonstrate that he was not teaching JEWISH believers to forsake the Law, or forbiding THEM to circumcise THEIR children, did he have any harsh words to say? Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all THE JEWS which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that THEY ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: AND ALL MAY KNOW THAT THOSE THINGS, WHEREOF THEY WERE INFORMED CONCERNING THEE, ARE NOTHING; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. AS TOUCHING THE GENTILES WHICH BELIEVE, WE HAVE WRITTEN AND CONCLUDED THAT THEY OBSERVE NO SUCH THING, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. (Acts 21:20-25.) Since Paul agreed to this, it would seem that impossing the Mosaic Law on Gentile believers is what he had strong words concerning (and I would agree that when Messianic believers attempt to do this, it's equally wrong today.) As far as God being through with Israel after the flesh--A. E. Knoch and his followers teach that there still is a physical Israel, and that God's covenant promises to them will be fulfilled during the Millennium. While I share that view (which I believe is scriptural), I suspect you know that I don't always agree with our Concordant friends, and I'm curious as to your views Al? Do you think God is through with Israel aftrer the flesh? Do all the Old Testament prophecies of a Messianic Kingdom apply only to the New Testament Church. When I say "New Testament Church," that brings up another question. Do you (unlike our Concordant friends) believe the Church that began on Pentecost exists today? Do you (again unlike our Concordant friends) consider yourself part of the same Church that Peter, James, and John belonged to? |
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Al Jenke
Apr 20th, 2007 - 4:11 PM |
Re: Messianic Movement
Hello Mike: I will bow humbly to your correction. By the way, your new WEB Site looks GREAT -- MUCH better than the old one !!  Further comments on the question under consideration can be found HERE: http://www.tlchrist.info/answers.htm#messianic . |
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Eystein
Apr 20th, 2007 - 8:35 PM |
Re: Messianic Movement
“I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died.” Romans 14:14-15 The Christian freedom is that we are no longer in bondage under either sin or law, but this also implies that we are free to follow the laws we feel are immoral or simply unnatural to break. Most of the mosaic laws, except of course the severe penalties for breaking them, are not different from the moral laws of any society. If we abstain from murder, theft or fornication no one would judge us of being in bondage to the old covenant. Observing circumcision, and keeping the 7th day Sabbath, the feast days, and the Kosher laws comes naturaly to those who are born in the Jewish religion even when they convert to Christianity. Paul did rebuke those who believed that observing these laws made them more righteous before God than those who did not observe them, and those who wrongly believed that they were able to live up to the standard of the Law, but he also rebuked those who by another form of legalism destroyed their brothers by not respecting their moral feelings. We commit the same sin if we do not accept practicing, yet believing Jews as equal brothers in Christ. Those who sin without the Law will perish without the Law, and those who sin under the Law will be judged by the Law, but there is no condemnation of either in Christ Jesus. |
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Mike Burke
Apr 21st, 2007 - 12:59 AM |
Re: Messianic Movement
[Quote] By the way, your new WEB Site looks GREAT -- MUCH better than the old one !! [unquote] Thank you Al, but I've always been more interested in content than appearance. [Quote] I will bow humbly to your correction. [unquote] I was only trying to find out where you were coming from Al. To that end I visited the link you gave, and I'd like to humbly bring two things to your attention. First, you misquoted me. I did not say "which view I share (which I believe is scriptural)," I said "While I share that view (which I believe is scriptural), ..." Second, you still seem to unfairly equate Messianic Judaism with the Galatian heresy--and I still don't see why. They don't all want to impose the Mosaic Law on Gentile believers (as the Galatian heretics did.) If you missed the point of my post, I would ask you to consider the points raised by our Theology student from Norway: [Quote]“I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died.” Romans 14:14-15 The Christian freedom is that we are no longer in bondage under either sin or law, but this also implies that we are free to follow the laws we feel are immoral or simply unnatural to break. Most of the mosaic laws, except of course the severe penalties for breaking them, are not different from the moral laws of any society. If we abstain from murder, theft or fornication no one would judge us of being in bondage to the old covenant. Observing circumcision, and keeping the 7th day Sabbath, the feast days, and the Kosher laws comes naturaly to those who are born in the Jewish religion even when they convert to Christianity. Paul did rebuke those who believed that observing these laws made them more righteous before God than those who did not observe them, and those who wrongly believed that they were able to live up to the standard of the Law, but he also rebuked those who by another form of legalism destroyed their brothers by not respecting their moral feelings. We commit the same sin if we do not accept practicing, yet believing Jews as equal brothers in Christ. Those who sin without the Law will perish without the Law, and those who sin under the Law will be judged by the Law, but there is no condemnation of either in Christ Jesus. [unquote] Thank you Eystein (and God bless both of you.) |
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Theresa Ketch
May 17th, 2007 - 7:12 PM |
Re: Messianic Movement
Quoting Mike Burke: "There are now Jewish synagogues that accept Jesus (sometimes called Yeshua) as the promised Messiah. These are called "Messianic" synagogues, and they're part of the "Messianic movement." Most of them observe circumcission, and keep the 7th day Sabbath, the feast days, and the Kosher laws (but not all of them seek to impose these things on Gentile believers.) What should our attitude be toward this movement? " I personally love the Torah. Jesus said we live by every word of God..that includes the Torah, the Writings, and the Prophets, and also the New Testament. It seems to me that "cult" messianic judaism is more in the news than the quieter, mainstream messianic movement. With this in mind, one can hear some strange stuff coming from these people's mouths, and people who are not very familiar with the MJ movement can be offended. Messianic Judaism is good, if it taught properly. It seems the ones that are giving it a bad name are the Jewish wannabe's, Gentiles that try and live Jewish, or who secretly want to be Jewish, or who downright lie and say that they are Jewish. Have you ever attended a Passover Seder, Mike? Celebrating God's feast days are wonderful, and keeping the sabbath is a good day for physical rest. Bo-Ai |
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Theresa Ketch
May 17th, 2007 - 7:16 PM |
Re: Messianic Movement
Quoting Mike Burke: "The Galatian Judaizers wanted to impose the Mosaic Law on Gentile believers, did they not?" No, they wanted the galatian gentiles to be circumcised according to Rabbinic Judaism's laws of conversion. That was always their main concern, that they get circumcised. They believed that they were not really a part of God until they got circumcised, and Paul argued aginst this, that rather they were accepted of God according to the Spirit - a spiritual re-birth. Bo-Ai |
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Mike Burke
May 17th, 2007 - 8:47 PM |
Re: Messianic Movement
I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. (Gal. 5:3, RSV.) Paul wasn't saying this to circumcised Jews, but to uncircumcised Gentiles (as only the uncircumcised could "receive" circumcision.) Circumcision wasn't a law of conversion Rabbinic Judaism came up with on it's own, it was prescribed by Moses (and actually goes back to the book of Genesis.) The Galatian heretics wanted to impose circumcision, and the Law of Moses (The Torah, the 613 rules given to Israel in first five books of the Bible) on Gentile converts. Paul didn't object to Jewish believers honoring their God-given heritage, but he strongly objected to imposing it on Gentiles (or believing it could save anyone.) As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. (Gal. 6:12-16.) Shalom. |
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Theresa K
May 22nd, 2007 - 2:58 PM |
Re: Messianic Movement
Hello Mike, Circumcision as prescribed by God through Moses was only for the children of Israel. It was a sign that there was a covenent between Israel and God. The requirements for as gentile to join Israel was to keep the sabbath (read Isaiah chapter 56) The Rabbis also believe that if a gentile keeps the Noachide Laws, that is good enough for them, unless they want to serve G_d, then they must be circumcised, take mikveh, understand what it means to be a religious Jew -and then that gentile is considered a Jew. Paul's concern is that faith, not circumcision, is what saves a person and makes them right with God. To add the works of the flesh to the works of the Spirit is to fall away from grace. Paul was in no way telling them not to obey God's Laws. Theresa |
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Mike Burke
May 22nd, 2007 - 3:45 PM |
Re: Messianic Movement
[Quote] Circumcision as prescribed by God through Moses was only for the children of Israel. [unquote] Not entirely true: `And when a sojourner sojourneth with thee, and hath made a passover to Jehovah, every male of his [is] to be circumcised, and then he doth come near to keep it, and he hath been as a native of the land, but any uncircumcised one doth not eat of it (Ex. 12:48, Young's Literal Translation.) [Quote] It (circumcision) was a sign that there was a covenant between Israel and God. [unquote] Yes, and if a Gentile converted to Judaism by accepting this sign, he was obligated to keep the whole law. for as many as are of works of law are under a curse, for it hath been written, `Cursed [is] every one who is not remaining in all things that have been written in the Book of the Law -- to do them (Gal. 3:10.) lo, I Paul do say to you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing; and I testify again to every man circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law (Gal. 5:2-3.) [Quote] The requirements for as gentile to join Israel was to keep the sabbath (read Isaiah chapter 56) [unquote] I've read Isa. 56. It doesn't say this was the only requirement, that's something you've read into the text. [Quote] The Rabbis also believe that if a gentile keeps the Noachide Laws, that is good enough for them, unless they want to serve G_d, then they must be circumcised, take mikveh, understand what it means to be a religious Jew -and then that gentile is considered a Jew. [unquote] So to be a full convert, a Gentile must be circumcised (just as it says in Ex. 12:48.) If a Gentile wants to rely on the Torah for his salvation, he should accept circumcision as the sign of the covenant--but then he must keep the whole Law perfectly. Paul was not against Torah, but he was against relying on it for one's salvation (and he was against imposing it on Gentiles)--that's what the book of Galatians is all about. |
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Mike Burke
May 23rd, 2007 - 4:01 PM |
Re: Messianic Movement
P.S. The Rabbis regarded Gentiles who kept the Noachide laws as "God-fearers," or "proselytes of the gate" (and this ties in well with Acts 15), but a full proselyte (what they called "a proselyte of righteousness") had to be circumcised. Furthermore, I don't believe they considered the Sabbath one of the Noachide laws. Shalom |
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pam
Aug 8th, 2007 - 3:03 PM |
Re: Messianic Movement
The hearts of the Jews were hardened toward Jesus for our sake. Because their hearts were hardened, God was able to graft us in through Christ. Those of us called to Salvation in Christ are not called because of our righteousness but because of our baseness as a demonstration of the power of the Mercy of God. Because God has shown mercy upon those of us who are base and placed us in the seat of righteousness in Christ Jesus, He is able to also graft the Jews who's hearts have been hardened back in again. When their eyes have been opened to Jesus and their hearts softened to receive Him, this will be the fullness of the chosen people of God and will bring the resurrection of the dead. God hardens some so that He might have mercy upon some that He might have mercy upon all. This process the continual kneeding, the working together of the evil and the good, that is His plan for us since the foundation. His Mercy endures forever and in His Mercy lies the only hope for humankind and indeed,the entire Creation. |
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Mike Burke
Aug 8th, 2007 - 5:28 PM |
Re: Messianic Movement
I'm not sure what you mean by the kneading together of the evil and the good," unless you're thinking of the parable of the leaven. If you are, I think it should be pointed out that the whole eventually becomes leaven (so in the end, there's no evil left.) G-d Bless. |
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pam
Aug 9th, 2007 - 9:40 AM |
Re: Messianic Movement
No, I wasn't thinking of leaven but of God's "working together the good and the evil for the good of those who are in Christ Jesus." I also consider the way he hardened hearts in the OT so that He could demonstrate His power and make Himself known. There is also a passage (obscure to most) in I or II Kings (I can find it if you like) where God is deciding what to do in regards to King Ahab. There are ministering spirits on His left and on His right and He is devising a plan with them. It is the spirits on the right who minister good and the spirits on the left that devise evil and God decides when to administer the first and allow the second. That is a passage that has centralized itself in my thinking in regards to God's working. It gives me comfort because it has painted a definite picture of the complete Sovereignty of God in my mind. I still despair over the evil He allows into my life but then I am returned to my right mind when I recall this passage and know that He allows it for the ultimate good of all. The first 'all' mentioned in scripture to be saved are the Jews. I would not be called Christian if God had not hardened their hearts and blinded them to Jesus and because, in part, God has showered His Mercy upon me, one so underserving, God will also save all of the Jews. Their fullness will be the complete revelation of Jesus Christ when every knee will bend and every tongue confess Jesus as Lord. "When we ALL get to Heaven, What a wonderful day that will be! When we ALL see Jesus, we'll sing and dance the victory!" Have a Jesus-ful Day! Pam |
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pam
Aug 4th, 2008 - 1:12 PM |
Re: Messianic Movement
Hi Mike, Long time no see. I had to have my computer lobatamized and thought I had lost you. I'm glad to find you are here in the same old place.:0) Since reading this, I have add opportunity to have discussions with Messianic Jews and those discussions have been very educational. Actually, I tend to have more in common with them in my view of scripture than many other Christians. Some do believe that Gentile believers should keep the Sabbath on Saturday as well as the Moral Law and also, celebrate the feast days. They seem to be the younger ones. While the Messianics of a more mature espouse that the Gentiles are to remain Gentiles. Though after these discussions, I am not able to live through a Saturday without considering that it is the original Sabbath, I know that as a Gentile that I have been made holy apart from the Law and Jesus is my Sabbath. I truly believe that it is not harmful to observe those special days but it is not necessary for Gentiles to do so. In the Kingdom of God, we will merge as one people but in this present age, we each bring glory to God in our own fashion according to the purpose He has ordained for us. I respond the Messianics as I do all believers in Jesus. I discuss our simularities and differences in love and at all times, cling to Jesus going to Him for understanding as I rely upon the Holy Spirit to guide me into all truth. After all, Paul teaches that we Gentiles are being saved because of our base nature. Our Salvation is purely merciful act of God and not because of anything good in us. Since through Jesus God has saved me, He can save anyone and will save all of the Jews. We are where God's righteousness and mercy are brought together without contradiction. |
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